CIM Marketing Podcast - Episode 50: Embrace the pace of change

Ally Cook  00:01 

Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast the contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM marketing podcast are not necessarily those are the companies for which they work. This series is currently being recorded via web conferencing. We apologise for any issues with the audio. 

Ben Walker  00:19 

Hello everybody. Welcome to the CIM marketing podcast and today we are joined by a favourite of the podcast she's back for addition 5, 6, 7 I can't even remember what it is more ragged is the great Morag could have been joined editor of CIA and in house magazine catalysts. How are you more like welcome back? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  00:42 

I'm very well and suitably puffed by your introduction. I think that's the most fulsome yet haven't knows what happens when we get to number 10? Or 11? 

Ben Walker  00:50 

Is it becoming an arms race? Is it that we these introductions will become evermore fulsome on every visit from you? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  00:58 

I expect the next one to be the verbal equivalent of top hat and tails. Ben?  

Ben Walker  01:02 

Yes, it will be I'm making note, I'll make a note what's in the magazine is coming out as it's out. Now, by the way it's coming out it should be landing on your doorsteps very soon if you're a member of CIM, what can we look forward to this time? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  01:16 

Well, this this magazine, I have to say I think it exercised my brain more than any of the others. And that's not to say the others didn't, I think this one really did stretch me in terms of understanding the content in terms of some of the ideas that were brought to the table, there was some of the ideas that I was quite ready to go, we're not interested in that are we? and then of course, having read the most excellent submissions as like, oh, you know, what, we really are interested in that. And I really need to challenge some of my thinking. And I think that became something of a theme for me for this edition was challenging thinking, in a period of change. Let's not bluster on about the pandemic too much, I'm actually looking at things when we're talking about change from a from a new perspective.  

There are lots of other things outside the pandemic that are impacting marketing at the moment, whether you are talking about sustainability, or new technologies, new theories moving into omni channel, and then there's multiverse. So there's so much going on so many balls to keep in the air for marketers to juggle. Some of those changes have been thrust upon us, again, in terms of sustainability, which is why we felt it was so important to address this, it's talked about a lot. But I think we really did come up with some fresh perspectives. Our own Gemma Butler came up with a brilliant definition, which was about it was delivering wellbeing for all. And so that encompasses so many other things. And the roundtable went on to talk about, you know, the human resource, the fact that employees are demanding that their businesses behave sustainably.  

And that sustainability is, again, isn't the recyclability that's very important, obviously. But it's about provenance. And then it's about people and making sure that people who are involved in supplying your business are well treated. It's about making sure that people within your business are well treated.  

Ben Walker  03:13 

It's an interesting concept, though, isn't it that sustainability isn't just about the environment, which is what it's come to mean. And it's about wellbeing for all that's an interesting definition that Gemma Butler made.  

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  03:23 

Yeah, you're right. And wellbeing for all includes the well being for the business. So we're not doing sustainability for sustainability sake, I think you've really struggled to get companies to commit to something that was going to cost them potentially millions of pounds, dollars and work hours to implement, it has to also benefit the business. And so we found it really interesting. Also in the magazine is the profile, this edition of Trevor Johnson, who is tiktoks, head of marketing. Now naturally, he is a black man at a very high level in the marketing community. And we've run features on this before that the representation is very, very important. In marketing, it is at a very low level. We've spoken to Walter Gear who is a very big advocate of this in the States. But it's not all just about diversity.  

Diversity is a brilliant tool for the business to pull in new perspectives, new ideas, and to help navigate this period of unprecedented change that we're constantly in. And Trevor made an interesting point in that profile. One phrase again, that really stuck with me was that tiktok moves at the speed of culture. And of course it has to and culture is about people so people have to be behind driving that change. And you know, I'm as guilty as anyone I am not what you would imagine. Again, stereotype here. I'm not what you would imagine to be tiktoks core consumer. My 14 year old son, however, is absolutely nailed on the person that they want to speak to. But again, there are so many differences there that you need to have people within and without your organisation.  

You can bring different influences and different perspectives that you don't understand that quite possibly, you may never understand. But the key here is to understanding that other people will be deeply embedded in these ideas, these cultural changes these new products, these new platforms. And I find it interesting that that someone like Trevor Johnson, this could be an interesting phrase to use. But he's one of those people that I think of as someone who is a midwife to the marvellous. And men can be midwives too, by the way, but a midwife to the marvellous, someone who can help make that transition to guide those new ideas safely into the mainstream, letting them stay very much who they are those ideas, but help the rest of the world around them, adapt to them, work with them, understand them, but you don't necessarily everyone doesn't have to love it. Everyone doesn't have to want it. But they have to accept other people will. 

Ben Walker  06:16 

So if we've got to keep up with the pace of culture as Trevor advises, what does that mean to the real world? What are we got to keep up with what's out there that we've got to know about? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  06:25 

Oh, there was there was so much. Pick one. I mean, it's case in point our cover story. This edition is on the metaverse 

Ben Walker  06:34 

What is the metaverse? I'm sorry to sound like an ignoramus. But what on earth is it? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  06:40 

You absolutely don't because I think some people involved in the metaverse are still asking themselves what the metaverse is, if you're a bit old school like me and remember the game like Sims, remember again, Sims computer games where you pretend to be part of a family and you acquire equipment and you start buying things with virtual money. That's a very basic kind of explanation of what the metaverse is that Metaverse is a virtual world where you don't sort of sit there like we would sit here in a Microsoft Teams meeting. You see each other's faces, you become avatars. Facebook when they launched meta because they are down with the metaverse, they demonstrated this with the avatars of Mike. Mike Zuckerberg, Mark Zuckerberg.... 

Ben Walker  07:25 

Is Mike Mark's more attractive younger brother? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  07:28 

Well, either way, but neither of them are in the metaverse. They both got laughed at. Because the the avatars in the metaverse don't have any legs. Right. And even more amusingly when Nick Clegg, former lib, dem leader, et cetera. He is now the Director of Communications, I believe, or public affairs, you have to check in on that one. He conducted an interview in the metaverse and his avatar was seem to be doing something very peculiar. It was leaning over backwards with his arm in the air, and the interviewer was going, is everything okay? He's like, I'm terribly sorry. But I can't drink a cup of coffee with this thing on.  

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  07:36 

Let me just try to understand this anecdote here. The former Lib Dem leader who was in fact, the former Deputy Prime Minister of the UK, I believe, was holding an interview in a modern day version of SimCity, in which he was depicted on his backside with his arm in the air. 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  08:34 

He was sitting on a chair, leaning back with his arm in the air. What his, because, of course, his avatar was mimicking what his body was doing. And while that looked very strange, because of course, his avatar wasn't wearing a virtual reality headset. However, the live Nick Clegg was and couldn't get his coffee cup into his mouth with the headset in the way, the very peculiar behaviour of this avatar throwing their arms around, when in fact, all the human was trying to do was drink a cup of coffee in the middle of the interview, which in person may not have seen so weird. So it's a it seems like a throwaway anecdote, but the metaverse is not without its glitches and bugs, and it is very, very much in its infancy.  

We still don't as is admitted, but there are case studies in the magazine and almost to a man and woman, the commenters are saying you know, this is the early stage we don't expect this to be mass adoption for ages yet. There's a certain a huge amount of scepticism I have to say as to what Facebook is going to do with its meta given that you know, it's Oculus Rift doesn't have mass adoption either. And full disclosure, we have one my husband is to be seen flying around Brazil. He loves the aircraft simulator more than life itself. But it's not mass adoption yet, and nobody is under any illusions that it will be for some time, we've yet to understand it to understand its potential.  

And this, this brings an interesting paradox, I think for marketers, because on the one hand, we're telling we're, we're telling, we're asking marketers, be innovative be at the cutting edge, find out what's happening, what can push you head and shoulders above your competition. And then on the other hand, we're saying, come to us with hard figures come to us with hard proof, demonstrate how XYZ strategy will drive the business forward in the next 12 months. And then you have this thing called the metaverse. 

Ben Walker  10:39 

Well, yes, you do. And I think the marketers will be looking at it, who be listening to this will be thinking, perhaps a couple of things I would guess is one is, how do I convince the powers that be in my organisation? This is the future if indeed, it is the future. And last, but just as importantly, how on earth do I convince them to approve what does sound to me like a major, major outlay in terms of investment from something that a lot of people still won't be able to conceive of? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  11:15 

So there are layers, as with everything else. So the metaverse is brand new. There are many places that companies and individuals can engage with the metaverse totally for free, you can download Avatar life and play around with it as much as you like, you don't have to have a corporate account or anything else. Avatar life does have brand partners, they have branded environments with certain companies who have taken the plunge and decided that this is a an important channel for some of their customer segments. And clearly they have a right they will have looked into it there.  

These are, these are big brands, and they're not willing to part with cash easily. So it is something you can dip a toe in. It is something that certainly like anything new you want to explore. But you have to go with your appetite. Are you a massive risk taker with the deep pockets to allow you to take massive risks and one goes bust one goes bust? Or are you cautious, and just want to explore you're happy to let other people take a first mover advantage. You can learn from them and then address it in a more quality way later. I think it was interesting. 

Actually, when I was looking into the metaverse and NFTs, I'm still not entirely sure. But I you know, again, jury has to be out on that, because it's an evolving story. And I was looking into, you know, people who are dismissed, great new ideas and I came across a Newsweek article. Do we rate Newsweek? I think we rate Newsweek, Newsweek 1995, Newsweek effectively wrote that the internet was a fad and would be over by 1996. Never catch on. On this newfangled weborama stuff.  

Ben Walker  13:04 

I'm not going to be I'm not going to be my usual sort of ageing Luddite self here. And I just as we've been talking I've been imagining some potential practical uses of the metaverse I mean, presumably it is it is possible it is theoretically possible it may even be practically possible for people to go shopping in a virtual space in a Metavers

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  13:26 

You already can. You already can you can shop in Metaverse, games you can meet up. I was involved in a retail report recently, doing some research and China as always is leading the way and there's already the possibility to meet in games and in chat type virtual environments and try the  clothes.  

Ben Walker  13:50 

I was gonna ask can you try clothes on and see what you look like in them as an avatar? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  13:55 

I think it wouldn't necessarily give the verisimilitude that you're looking for. But you can do you can do things like that in chat with real pictures of yourself from it from a changing room. But all these things are sort of mixing and I found it really interesting when you said you know, I'm going to put aside my ageing Luddite head. We're allowed to be ageing Luddites, not all of us has to adapt to this sort of thing. I think even if I am allowed to go shopping with my friends in the metaverse, I may not I may well who knows I still haven't been playing Beat Sabre with my cousins in New Zealand even so I've got the capacity to,but it did make me think you know, when we had all those sort of zoom parties at the end of 2020 when we really were forced to stay indoors singly. Actually the ability to meet up like you know all style we advertise you know, he can go bowling with your friends on the old style Nintendo Wii. Right? That actually would be quite cool. And also, dress up put makeup on in front of zoom camera you could be you could still be in your pyjamas. 

Ben Walker  14:54 

You can press a button to do the dressing and make-uping 

Ben Walker  14:56 

You can change at the drop of a hat.  

Ben Walker  15:00 

You can see that it may have improved, not that it would have been hard to improve them the zoom, the Zoom party would have been more genuinely interactive and you would feel that you're doing an activity rather than rather than staring, staring at a screen. I mean, I'm open minded to it. I, my son got an Oculus for Christmas. And I was surprised how much I enjoyed it and how immersive it was. And you can see how some of this stuff would work. Even if it does sound a little bit black mirror. I mean, this is this is a prediction question. So we won't hold you to it. I never do. But can you see it sort of eventually eclipsing traditional marketing and traditional forms of selling products? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  15:43 

I doubt it very much.  

Ben walker  15:46 

Well, you're not the modern day version of Newsweek 95? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  15:49 

I'm not the modern day version of Newsweek 95. I'm going to I'm going to find a very pointy fence and sit on it. Now it's like anything, these things you whether you want it to be the Gartner Hype curve, whether you want it to be a fad, whether you want it to be super exciting, and then it all becomes terribly disappointing. It will be here in some form or other it already has been here in some form or other. I mean, like we've been we've been alluding to different examples of erstwhile versions of a Metaverse where you've been playing with friends across country and Wii and Beat Sabre on Oculus and playing Sims. Anything you could connect with anyone else is its form of metaverse. Maybe the metaverse, metaverse now is just got a bit better data and shinier shoes on. So I think there are there are with due, with all due respect, then there are better men and women out there with intelligence that can think up fantastically new uses for this thing that I can't even begin to dream up in my worst caffeine fever dreams. But... 

Ben Walker  16:50 

There are certainly better men than me. I don't know about women than you, in terms of finding those people, but what does it mean for businesses in terms of readying themselves, is that something they need to be sort of stealing themselves for this year in 2022? Or is it? Is it gonna be a little bit of slow burn? And they've got bit more time? Do you think to get to grips with the concept? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  17:09 

I think it brings us kind of full circle back to the whole theme of this magazine, doesn't it Ben the openness and the ability to welcome people who do not fit the peg shaped holes you've created for your company? I think increasingly, more and more companies are willing to source talent, insights, ideas from different sources. And even when I say source, that implies a sort of proactive, we've gone on the hunt for something. Actually, it's not even that I think it's simply a culture of openness. And going okay, let's let's dedicate, we're talking about four day working week at the moment as well, for example, not in the magazine, but it's something that at the time of recording has been quite hot property news. Maybe we're dedicating one half day of that to noodling around on the web, or looking at tiktok and finding something that catches the eye or connecting with someone you've never connect with before on LinkedIn and, and seeing what they have to offer. Because, frankly, what is there to lose? 

Ben Walker  18:11 

Well, I mean, some of the most successful agents who people are good noodlers, aren't they the people who actually take time to do that noodling to have a look around at what's out there, because you're week can pass you by in day to day tasks. And that means you're not doing any of the open mindedness, you're not doing any of those sorts of sharp visual shopping to see what's out there and keeping up with trends. Not every trend, as you said earlier, not every trend, not every product, and every newfangled idea is going to suit you now or even ever. But it is the noodling is important, isn't it for people in agencies and marketing departments to consider that part and parcel of their role and not something that's sort of a you know, a bit of a Dos? Or a bit of a skive? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  18:53 

The noodling, whether that's online, or even in person. I mean, one of the other articles we've got in the magazine is about networking. And interestingly, it's written from the perspective of the people who read it, learning how to network properly. But actually, if you look at it, from the perspective of the person who has been, this is not a phrase I'm sure being networked at, or networked too. So some of the advice in that article for a networker is to identify someone's need. And whether that's just a need in the moment for a conversation at the pastry table in a conference. That's their, their need.  

Then in there, you've established a connection, and the articles about turning contacts into contracts and you know, actually making that networking work. So you identify their first up need, which is someone to talk to. And eventually they might reach out on LinkedIn just to LinkedIn verse to try and find an answer to a question that you can identify that need and answer that. And through stages, you answer their need. But the other piece of advice is to really listen to them, find out about them. And if they're not explicitly telling you a need, how about identifying a need, they may have.So from that perspective, you know, as someone who's sitting there going, I want to find innovation.  

I want to see where the next ideas are. But I've got no idea where to look. Why not when people are coming to you with ideas, this may be a need that you don't know you have being open to listening to the ideas they have that could help you. I think an awful lot of us are very closed down. It could be it could be a British thing I appreciate we have a global audience. But this I have identified as a British thing. You could be lying in the street, bleeding arterially, and someone bends down and says, Could I help you? And you're like, No, no, no, I've got it sorted. I think I've got a tissue in my handbag. We're very reluctant to accept help and new ideas. Often I find. 

Ben Walker  20:46 

Politeness also gets in the way of offering help. 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  20:49 

That's true. That's true. Openness, all round openness to someone when someone says, I could help you with this, or have you thought about that? It may not pan out in the end, but the willingness to go, I haven't do explain, or the courage to go up to someone and say, you know, I think this would be really great for you. And you, it's probably not something that's in your wheelhouse at the moment. Do you want to have a look at it? 

Ben Walker  21:15 

Do you think? Do you think that sort of virtual environments if they happen to some degree or less in the world of contact building and turning contacts into contracts as you so neatly, put it in your magazine, those sorts of interactions will be better done in something that's a little bit more like physical space, which is perhaps a Metaverse rather than sort of writing a stock note on LinkedIn saying connect, they say yes. And you never hear from them again, nevermind, get a contract from them. So actually, interactive environments could actually build that I've got something I can help you with. You accepted and that becomes a strong contact a high value contact. 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  21:55 

You might be onto something there, Ben, because I think there's a great parallel. That's that's only just occurred to me. So well done for sparking some new ideas. There's a great parallel between that and parenting in the metaverse. There's distraction, isn't there? There's environment, you could be standing at a virtual bar or queuing for a virtual event and chatting to the avatar next to you. Whereas obviously, with LinkedIn or email, you're sending a bold email going, I want or do you want, it's very direct, there's very little, you know, nicety around the edges. Can you wondering, how does this relate to parenting? Well, apparently, I have tried it. Occasionally it works.  

If you want to get something out of a truculent, teenage child, or have a slightly tricky conversation. The best place to do it is in the car driving somewhere. Because we're both sitting, facing forward, you're not confronting each other, you're facing forward, you're doing something else, it's finite, you're on the way to somewhere else. So you can have the conversation. It's non threatening, it's a little less direct. And then it ends it has it has an end. So even so if it's the most uncomfortable thing you've ever had to deal with. And you really don't want to deal with it again. Eventually, you do get to get out of the car. Note this is probably not advisable on an eight hour drive from Lands End to John O'Groats, the school run will do. But first, I can see where that's a parallel if you want to.  

We find this awkward, don't we? The reason we keep putting these networking articles in different angles in the magazine is because we still find it awkward to a degree. Yeah, so anything that reduced removes that awkwardness and the metaverse, I can see being a great foil for that. Because not only that you don't even look like you necessarily. The Metaverse is you can be a tattooed eco warrior, when you're, you know, a 75 year old granny sitting in your sitting room crocheting a tea cosy, so it lets you be and have a complete reset. Obviously, that would be a slight shock if someone was expecting a tattooed Eco warrior and they've got the granny in a meeting, but you get my point. So it removes a lot of those confrontational elements that make it awkward for us to achieve our goals.  

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  21:55 

It creates that sort of benign indirectness. And as you say, boundaries, which sort of goes to your point about cars, that that actually makes contact building better, which is presumably why we have events why we we have parties or we will again because of the that creates that same sort of thing which makes contact building bounded indirect and more pleasant than than, as you say, exchange, transactionally exchanging a note over LinkedIn. Okay, I'm sold on the metaverse I. It's something I'm going to be I have to get used to in 2022. Is it the biggest change this year? Are there other things afoot? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  24:44 

I think it's one of the more discombobulating changes. Yeah, there are many many changes afoot if you want to go into things like data and omni channel platforms and all the good stuff that marketers are used to dealing with on the day today, I think it is definitely alongside NFT's which I have yet to work my head around and which my 17 year old keeps coming home going, Mum, you know, you can just screenshot it and create a PDF and that just completely does away with the NFT. 

Ben Walker  25:15 

None fundable tokens which are about with the level of understanding of them is similar to that of blockchain is that nobody understands it. And that has to not admit that they don't understand it. This is the concept of a digital image which is in every way identical to any other digital images your son as rightly said, but nevertheless has value because it is the original certified image. So you can buy digital image which has value in the same way that a piece of art would have value, because it is certified through guess what the blockchain now if you don't understand that as an audience, or you don't understand it, don't worry, because neither do I really, but that is broadly what these things are.  

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  25:57 

Pretty much. I mean, it's they're talking about NFT for wine, they're talking about NFT for all sorts of things. I think something like Banksy is the original NFT because everyone's every time somebody tells me a Banksy is worth 3 million. I keep wanting to say it's point, painted on the side of someone else's house. How can you sell something that's stuck to somebody else's house? And I've never heard you could have a postcard of Banksy for 50 P. But you still anyway that that completely baffles me there is much in the world, Ben, as I'm sure you're aware, that baffles me beyond belief. 

Ben Walker  26:28 

I think it's meant to baffle us, isn't it? That's the point. As marketers, should we be, your you seem to be implying that as marketers, we should be, embrace this bafflement or keep open minded to it because things pop out of it. 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  26:41 

We should because a lot of the time those dross out there. But equally, if you're not open minded to it, you're going to miss the next internet, you're going to miss the next Tiktok you're going to miss the next for all its faults Facebook. So you know, you have to keep that open mind and in no, it's not all about being a first mover I'm sure there's going to be endless amount of consultants who will are piling on me on Twitter or otherwise, saying first mover advantage is vital. You won't get anywhere today without being first mover. That was a great deal to be said for hunkering down being open. But waiting until the time is right for you. And you've made the learnings you need to make sure you do because there's an awful lot of people jumping on bandwagons that are neither good for them nor the bandwagon.  

Ben Walker  27:28 

That's not their business that can actually be quite damaging for the business if it doesn't work out for you. And it's not right for your client roster to head down these often very expensive solutions. I mean, as long as how do you make that judgement? How do you decide what am I going to sell this into the business or not? What are the tools you use to try and help you make that decision? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  27:48 

Well, then that's a spoiler alert coming up in the next edition of capitalist how you get that leadership buy in. But what I will, what I will say is, it's got to be it's got to be done to your appetite, your business. If you've been a marketer of any length experience, you surely must understand how to decide, I can't see how in essence, it's any different to deciding whether or not you're going to open an Instagram shop, or whether you're going to buy media at a certain roundabout, you have to perform all the usual evaluations. Is it in our appetite? Is it a fit for our brand?  

Will, what we're looking at deliver in the time we want it to deliver? Are the promises we're being given by the people in control of this technology, this platform this innovation kosher? And if all of those boxes are ticked, then it is a target for, for us? And is it is it in competition with all the other things we want to do. You know, will it deliver compared to something else? So there are loads and loads of different little levers that you've got to pull before you arrive at that particular conclusion for yourself. But I think no matter how out there, we might consider it. And again, there's there's people in the metaverse who are probably veterans at the grand old age of six months having been in it who would say that this is established, etc. But you know, however, out there, it seems to you it is all down to your appetite and the understanding of your business and your need.  

Ben Walker  29:21 

But the important thing, which is the big message I'm taking from this issue of catalyst, this issue, not the next issue which has trailed is to stay open minded and get out there and look at it. You know, don't don't go close your mind off because it sounds alien or it sounds freakish. Or it sounds a bit sci fi or it sounds Black Mirror ish. Have a look at it.  

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  29:41 

So don't be frightened of change, not change for changes sake. But change happens all the time. It happens all around us. And if we're determined to stay set in our spec, we know that that you just need to look at the whole an entire department store sector for example. You stay the same, you die. So change and open mindedness go hand in hand.  

Ben Walker  30:04 

Get used to change, embrace it, keep open minded. Don't take it for its sake, but be open to it. There's fantastic stuff in Catalyst too about networking and turning contacts into contracts. I love that it's fantastic stuff from DNI and inclusion, we spoken about the roundtable about sustainability. Anything else in there that we should know as this thing lands on our doorstep? 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  30:27 

Oh, my goodness, loads and loads and loads. We've got the obviously the metaverse, we've talked about there's talk about African creators and how the challenges they face are often challenges faced by social media creators around the world and what companies can be doing to help them deal with that. We've got some great research into African sustainability, and very much the interesting thing about how priorities change across different African nations, and how you won't see consumers unnecessarily rushing to sustainable behaviours, because very much they have to deal with their own comfort first, and absolutely, they must. There's so much in there that I think you should just go out and read it 

Ben Walker  31:08 

That's out now for all CIM members in print and online digital version. I do commend it to you. It's always a great read. And I also commend to you it's editor for Morag Cuddeford-Jones. Thanks for joining us today Morag. It's been great again, we'll see you again on the CIM podcast very soon. 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  31:26 

Fantastic. Ben, thank you very much for having me. 

Ally Cook  31:29 

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