CIM Marketing Podcast - Episode 60: Boost your team’s performance with personality profiling

Ally Cook  00:01

Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast, the contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing podcast are not necessarily those are the companies for which they work. This series is currently being recorded via web conferencing. We apologise for any issues with the audio.

Ben Walker  00:19

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the CIM marketing podcast and how well do you know your team? How well do you know your colleagues? Perhaps not as well as you might think, and the times have changed, perhaps it's important that we do know a little bit of more about the market as we work with our friends and our colleagues at work and in the office. And joining us today to help us find out how we do that is Mr. Ian MacKnight, who is senior consultant at the Colorworks which profiles teams and team members in how are you?

Ian Macknight  00:54

Very well, thank you.

Ben Walker  00:56

It's great to have you on the show. And joining us as well as someone who's been on many times before a favourite of this podcast Miss Molly MacArthur, who is Digital Marketing Manager at CIM, and the reason for her visit will soon reveal itself. But we're going to start with you Mr. McKnight. Can you tell us a little bit about the Colourworks and what it does and why it is useful to us as marketers?

Ian Macknight  01:20

So the Colourworks, we're a training consultancy. And what we do is we work with individuals, we work with teams of people. And we very often use a profiling tool, which is the insights discovery profiling tool. And it uses colour as a simple way to describe human behaviour, which is why we're called the Colourworks. So the the insights discovery model is one of many different psychological profiling tools, personality profiling tools, if you like that are out on the market, people might have heard of the MBTI, the Myers Briggs tool, or they might have heard of disc or Belbin, this is one of those. The reason that we use the insights model at the colour works is because we find it's such an easy, simple model to work with and to grasp, but it's also very powerful. So some of the other models are though we respect them, and we like them, they can get a little bit complicated to work with. The insights model is nice and clear. People remember it and therefore you get traction from it in the business. So it has a high take up value.

Basically, what it does, as with all psychological profiling tools, it basically breaks human behaviour down into certain categories. So it's it breaks it down into four different categories. And there's a colour assigned to each category to help us remember that, what we do is we basically give someone a questionnaire online, they answer the questions takes about 15 or 20 minutes, which doesn't sound long, but it's enough. And we get the results back from that. And we know how much of each of those four different styles of behaviour people seem to like to use, and in what order they use them. So the colours are yellow, green, red and blue. I use a lot of yellow and green energy, as we call it when I'm working. But my red and my blue are weaker. And I've had to learn over the years to start to actually try to work those things a little bit better.

So it's a simple profiling tool. It breaks our behaviour down into categories, and it tells me what my preferences are. And from that we can actually generate reports of information, pages of information that give you an insight into your strengths. When you're working your you're likely weaknesses. It talks to you about your communication style, how you like people to connect with you, maybe what irritates you about the way people connect with you. Sometimes it gives tips for development, it helps us understand our management style and how we like to manage other people. So in a business context, this is a fabulous document because it gives a wealth of information that people can then take and use in their own individual development and also as a team.

Ben Walker  04:03

So these four colours and broadly what do they all mean yellow, green, red, and blue, the four primary colours, but the four classic colours we learned first in primary schools, what do they mean in terms of personality behaviours?

Ian Macknight  04:17

It's a good point. I mean, we can get you can go quite deep into these things. But on a very surface level, the yellow behaviour in us is that style of connecting with people in a very sunny way we call it Sunshine Yellow. So it's a way of connecting with people and with work in a very sociable, pleasurable way we seek pleasure we enjoy giving people pleasure, we like to work in an inspired way. We like to connect we like to be active. So that's our yellow style of behaviour.

The opposite of yellow is blue, where we like to be quite detailed, quite calm, quite steady, quite independent. We like routine we like structure that's seen as being the opposite of yellow style. And then we have the In the green, the red style of connecting with working people is vigorous, it's fast. It's goal oriented, we know what we have to do today, and we put a lot of energy into getting it done tends to be quite task based red energy, although, of course, we can use it with people as well. The opposite of that is the green behaviour, which is calm, steady, very people oriented. We'd like to work in a non threatening, non urgent environment. And we just calmly really get on with what we're doing in a nice way. Each of the styles has got a motto. So the yellow motto is involve me because I like being involved in many things that's stimulating to me, the red energy is be brief, be bright, and be gone. Just keep things short, keep it interesting. And then let's move on. Because I've got lots to do today. The green style is show me you care, because actually, that's a strong part of how I connect with people. And the blue style is just give me some detail. So that's the four different styles.

Ben Walker  06:00

Very, very interesting. I love the breakdown of the styles that you just outlined. Is it best in in a team to have a homogenous team? You know, we're all everyone's allowed to they got you got five people all sort of yellow with green tinge is or is it best to have a nice mix a rainbow in your marketing unit?

Ian Macknight  06:17

That's a good question, isn't it? We tried to say that there is no way that it should be what we say is what have you got and how you're going to use it. But diversity is recognised as just being a cornerstone of effective teams. So what we say is, if you have got a lot of people who do seem to work in a similar style, then it's really quite useful for that team to learn to reach into those areas that come less naturally to them.

So I've worked with one team who are 25 people, 21 of them were blue and green, which is introverted, very detailed, very organised, very structured, that brought them all sorts of different strengths and capabilities. But on the weaker side, they weren't so yellow and red, which meant that they weren't being as innovative as fast. They weren't communicating with people outside of their realm as much. So they had to learn to lean into that side of themselves to get a better balance. But we would say work with what you have. That's the idea of this.

Ben Walker  07:21

Interesting. Well, we as I said earlier, I advertised earlier, we're also joined today by Molly MacArthur, who is Digital Marketing Manager at CIM. But that is not why she is here. She is here today because she herself has been through this profiling process. Alongside I believe, members of her team at Moor Hall, which is CIM headquarters Molly, how did you find it as a new manager to be profiled, and to profile your team?

Molly MacArthur  07:51

It was brilliant. The level of detail that came back in these reports is so scary how you can spend, it must have been 15 minutes max answering a series of what seemed like really simple questions about how you'd like to do things, came back with scary amounts of detail about how someone likes to work, and how they like to be communicated with, what they don't like. I think the most surprising thing that came back from the team that I manage, is that we're all exactly not exactly the same, but we're all very, very similar. And so I was very excited to come on hear what Ian had to have to say about that, and if that's a good or bad thing, but we're all high green, high blue.

Ben Walker  08:43

Right? No yellows in there, no extroverts, no sunny dispositions in there.

Molly MacArthur  08:49

No, we've all got a little bit of that. But all lower levels of that, and really, really high green, and then followed by quite high blue as well. But having said that, we are one aspect of a marketing team were focused on and looking at a lot of data and sort of pulling insights out of that. But there are other members of the department that have very, very different personality types.

Ben Walker  09:15

Aha, so the the greens and the blues are very prevalent in the digital unit. But once you moved into the wider marketing directorate, other coloured started to emerge, is that right?

Molly MacArthur  09:26

Yeah, that's right. And also, I think a lot of the more creative side were quite quite high on the yellow, and also really high on the green too. There were definitely personalities in there, the high yellow, high red, so there was a broad mix.

Ben Walker  09:46

As you got this green, blue. Let's call it turquoise shade to your team. What did that inform you in terms of what you need to do and in that being said that, those people who have a strong preference for one person type of behaviour you need to lean in to the other type of behaviour and presumably vice versa. So, after you have done it, what action points did you take from it?

Molly MacArthur  10:10

There are a few things that came out, some are quite specific and some were more broad, a lot of what came up from my team is that we need a lot of information, and we need time to reflect and process that information. But we also need to be given a bit of an autonomy to sort of do things and, and given the sort of power to lead on things and make things happen. It was also a few bits in there about how people like to communicate.

So there was one particular person that really needs written communication that I had no idea about before. And I don't even know that they knew that about themselves necessarily. So I think it gave us a much deeper understanding of each other, they were all very similar. We're all coordinating supporters within this sort of Colourworks profile. Everyone sort of had their slightly different ways that they like to be communicated with and ways that if they were going to be given feedback, not to criticise and be very careful to listen to ideas and things like that. 

Ben Walker  11:13

Well that's fascinating, though, isn't it? Yeah. And because more from what Molly's just said, is that she is now going to nuance her behaviour slightly, she's going to actually change in some small way. But maybe it's an important ways, how she manages her team and how she communicates with her team. So it's not just that she's got these interesting profiles of herself and her colleagues, is actually changed the way that she behaves in the workplace.

Ian Macknight  11:36

Absolutely, yeah, it's a good point. But I mean, really, what we say about the profiles is that they are only as useful as they're used. You know, it's like an exercise bike, if you don't get on it, it doesn't do anything. So the point of having the information is really to stimulate conversations. That's what we always say, having the having these reports, having this insights model, it stimulates the conversation for me to actually start to understand me myself better. And to understand the people that I work with better, especially if I'm a team leader, like Molly, you know, you really do want to understand your team well, and what allowed to get the best out of them really. And we're a mixture of all four different styles, but we do have dominant preferences.

And so they will bring strengths, and it will produce weaknesses. In some respects. We're very keen that people actually accept who they are. It's not about necessarily changing and trying to perfect ourselves or get a perfect balance between these four different styles. What we do say, though, is that we can be smarter versions of ourselves and the people that we work with. We work with small businesses, large corporations, sports teams, what we find with those people is that the people who use this the most effectively are the people who actually get down and use it as a tool. How do I help to get the best out of me? How do I help to get the best out of you?

Molly MacArthur  12:55

I think that's one of the biggest things that I got out of it, actually. And that you just touched on there was understanding myself and how I work. I think, prior to this, I was too focused on the things that I was lacking. Maybe the sort of more red in me I was focused on, I don't have that sort of confidence. And I like to process things. I don't like to make decisions on the spot. And I was thinking, Oh, I really need to work on that. And I need to make decisions faster and things like this. But this reading through the profile made me really understand and accept that, no, it's perfectly fine, to need time to take the data, take the insights, and make a decision based on that.

And it stopped me feeling so bad about things and needing that time. And I now know to ask, and I can say to people, okay, give me a day, give me an hour to reflect on that. I just need to look into a bit more. And before, I would have just been like, Oh, yes, that decision is fine. Let's go with that. Because I feel pressured to be that sort of person that can be decisive. And I think, yeah, the just peace of mind that I've got from understanding the way that I work is, I don't say life changing. But it really is it is really changed the way that I work.

Ben Walker  14:07

That's a really positive way of perceiving and conceiving it. But my question is, could that also happen in reverse? And Molly, actually, is that you know, you Molly's team have been told to be the sort of turquoise team is green and blue. Could that then lead them if they hadn't taken into the way that Molly has taken to it? Well, actually, that means I'm a bit socially awkward, I'm a bit introverted, and actually lose a bit of confidence rather than gain the peace of mind that Molly's talking about.

Ian Macknight  14:36

Yeah, I mean, first of all, Molly just gave a really, really good summary of how you can use this stuff and you know, the impact that it can have on people. But your point there Ben is really critical. You know, we go to great pains when we're working with clients to make sure that there is no sense of one style of work behaving better than another you know, one colour preference as we would call it. One colour energy, there's no good there's no bad in this model, what we're encouraging people to do really is to just be respectful of the different ways that we behave, if I'm more introverted, and I want more time to think about things, and I like to have things in writing so that I can study them and go back to them, and then express an opinion in my own good time. That's a fabulous thing.

Ben Walker  15:19

Molly, how long ago, did you do this profiling?

Molly MacArthur  15:22

About a year ago, almost now.

Ben Walker  15:24

So in that year, since you have done it, and then you've changed the way that you behave as a manager, have you seen any changes in your team dynamics format, do you think?

Molly MacArthur  15:37

I think, because they have a better understanding of themselves, and other people that they work with, they're very clear now in how they want to be communicated with. And they feel comfortable expressing that to others. And like I was saying about needing time to reflect and a lot of us in the team do need that. There's less misunderstandings and communication is a lot clearer. And it has meant more emails, writing down details of things. But that's that's not a bad thing. Yeah, it has changed.

Ben Walker  16:10

 It's used across the piece. It's used in all industries, big small companies, is used in sport, but particularly for marketing as a marketeer, who has done this thing. Do you think it has any particular benefits for marketers, perhaps on the way they communicate? or communicate to their audiences?

Molly MacArthur  16:26

Yeah, definitely, I think as marketing team, you have to be clear on what it is that you want to communicate to your audience to get them on board and wanting to work with you buy your product buy your service. And so if you've not got that internal communication, where there's a very clear understanding of how we want to present ourselves externally, and then that that shows, and so I think having this clear, communication, this understanding of how people work is massively beneficial to people in marketing, I think absolutely anyone in any industry would benefit from doing it. But having worked in marketing, I can say it's, it's definitely benefited.

Ben Walker  17:06

Presumably it doesn't come cheap. I won't go into that here. We're here to interview not to advertise. But say, for example, you're a small business, and you didn't have the resources to go through this process. Again, all the other things that you can do to get somewhere near?

Ian Macknight  17:24

I think there are Ben Yes, because we are cost conscious, we are aware of that. I think really the point is that what we're trying to do here is to encourage people to have open and honest discussions, you know, with themselves in a sense, but also with each other, you know, how do I operate, very often, the way that we work is very transactional. What have I got to do today? How am I going to get it done? How are we going to divide the work out? How much does it cost? When does it have to be done by what you're looking at here is to just explore some of the things around my motivation for getting things done, how I'm feeling about things.

So actually having these conversations is critical to any team starting to function? Well, one of the reasons why appraisal systems and giving and receiving feedback and read it so often is because it's not commonplace. So what I'm saying to people is actually have these conversations, as just a part of your daily life, let's not make a big deal about it. I know that I'm great at some things. And there are some things I struggle with helped me to understand that so that I can actually work on one or two of them, and improve the things that are holding me back the most, I'm going to be a happier guy. And probably the team is going to function better as well.

Ben Walker  18:37

It does seem to bring huge benefits. But you've touched on something there, which was troubling me, which is I've gone through a couple of workplace profiling exercises, not this model, but a couple of others, which will remain nameless. And the second time was fine. But the first time I was nervous about it. In all honesty, I was nervous because I felt that somehow I was being examined, or somehow I was being tested by my employer. And presumably I just want to ask actually, Molly was an element of that at first for some people. So you had to reassure people that actually this was to find out what their preferences were, rather than whether they were competent or incompetent.

Molly MacArthur  19:17

Yes, there was one person in particular, actually, that I think really struggled with that. And when they opened up to start answering the questions, it took them a really long time. And Ian think in correct me if I'm wrong, but it sort of works best if you go off your initial instinct and don't take too long, just sort of overthink it, but they've really struggled with that. And I don't know that if they did it again, without having that in the back of their mind if it if their profile would change slightly. I think maybe they slightly geared it towards what they thought we would want from them as opposed to what felt natural to them. So yeah, I think you're right it definitely it does need a quite a bit of reassuring in advance that you know, this is not to say who we do and don't want to be working here. This is how we, you know, to support how we work together going forward,

Ben Walker  20:05

Are greens and blues more likely to try and second guess Ian

Ian Macknight  20:12

Definitely people who are higher in blue because they are often very analysing Ben, good spot. But they're often very analysing. And so sometimes they do overthink as Molly said, it's better in a way to just go through this using a little bit of gut instinct. And the really the context around this is important if a business is going to use this, make sure that people understand it's not a test. That's the first thing because a test suggests that you can fail or pass. It's not one of those. So we do say to people, just give them the context, make them understand that it's about understanding themselves not being judged.

Ben Walker  20:47

Do you have to keep doing it so monitored in about a year ago? Do people's personalities change over time? Are they sort of inert and innate? If you like that, you know, born green, forever green? Or is it something we should do more frequently?

Ian Macknight  21:01

Yeah, nice way of putting it, I think that people can change. We're human beings, you know. So if we change, then the profile should change with us, because we're the ones answering the questions. In my experience, though, we don't change that much. Because our personalities are really quite steady, from really quite a young age. What I also find with the profile is that even if I get better at using certain styles that were once weaker, the profile still teases out of me, what are my preferences, your preferences are always going to be really quite strong. Maybe the instrument isn't as sensitive as it could be in that way. But actually, I've been using this for 18 years now, I've changed a little bit, but not a lot. And people would probably say my personality hasn't changed that much either.

Ben Walker  21:44

Can you become more comfortable, though, and leaning into your opposite? So you it's interesting, you said our preferences don't change much our personalities. Frankly, as human beings don't change much from the time we've become perhaps adults, you know, or even late in their late teens, they don't change much. But can we become more comfortable at doing those reds and yellows, if we're, our preferences are greens and blues.

Ian Macknight  22:07

That's absolutely the aim. You know, without changing personality, it's about becoming comfortable. Because if I actually need to use a different style, and I struggle to access it, that's going to reduce my options. So in my early career, I certainly used an awful lot of green and yellow, yellow, and green, whichever order it was a very people relating very sociable, very helpful, that bought me all sorts of things in my career that were useful.

But it also created problems for me, because I tended to say yes to everybody. And I said yes to everything, I was a guy who was just interested in people, and anything new. And so I had to learn to dial down that green and yellow sometimes because it got me into places that I shouldn't have been going. And I had to learn to dial up my blue, which is about persevering and focusing and concentrating on my red, which is about hitting your deadlines, and not wandering off into things that are not your business. When I spent three to six months learning to do that, with my manager and my team, I became so much more effective. So what we recommend is to try to pick up on one or two small behaviours, and focus on those first, for three, six months until we nailed them.

Ben Walker  23:19

That's something you'll yourself are doing. Molly, we talked about your team, but it's not something you yourself is doing as a classic turquoise, a green blue? Are you looking to do little bits of yellow and little bits of red, a soupcon of red and a dash of yellow every day?

Molly MacArthur  23:33

Yes, definitely. So when you do the profile, it tells you your conscious and unconscious profile. And there's the difference between the two, I think you there's a certain amount in order to tell me how much but if you're pushing yourself too far out of your comfort zone, it is not so good for you. And I think when I did mine a year ago, I was very, very new into my management role. I was about 40% I was increasing, upping my different colours by about 40%, from what my unconscious profile said that I was. And even when you when I spoke, he said Oh, actually, you know, probably don't push yourself too much further for the things that you're you're not naturally high in because that sort of gets you a bit stressed.

Ian Macknight  24:15

The idea is that we move from a slightly more instinctive way of working sometimes to a more professional and aware of being watched style of working, I call it my jacket and tie me in the one version and me with my jacket off and just doing what I do. The idea is that we shift backwards and forwards between those styles. And sometimes the job demands things of us that we don't always have in the tank. And we can rise to that challenge sometimes but if it gets to, if we're asked to do it for too long, or in ways that we're just not very accustomed to that can start to tire us stress us and then we start to say okay, how do we moderate this and bring ourselves back into a better balance?

Ben Walker  24:58

What is the answer recruitment? I mean, if we, you know, if if, if Molly, Molly doesn't have much yellow already know she she tried to go out on a Monday morning to be determined to be that week as sort of orange person a mixture of red and yellow every day she would find it stressful. It's not a natural preference. And it's probably not a natural, where natural skills lie, frankly, was the answer recruitment that if she deems that she needs those sorts of people in her business, she goes out next time she's recruiting looking for sort of orange profiles who makes mix yellow with red.

Ian Macknight  25:34

It's always an option, isn't it? It's always an option to recruit in those things. Bill Gates describes himself as quite introverted, I would say he's probably blue, introverted and thinking in our language. And he said, I recruit extroverts to do the things that I can't do. So that's one option. The other option, though, is just to say, This is who we've got, as a team, we can't always just fill positions and bring people in. So what we need to do as a team sometimes is put that yellow hat on or that red hat on and say, Look, we tend not to think about these different sides of ourselves.

If we need to be more Pacey, more red more decisive, you know, how are we going to do that. And that then gets the team just dialling up their red for a little while without having to recruit it in. So we don't want people to be thinking that they have to have one of every style. It's just about saying be more conscious of the things that you're weaker in. Because you might be missing a trick there.

Molly MacArthur  26:27

Do you think as a hiring manager, that's high green, high blue, I would be naturally more attracted to people in the hiring process that are similar to me? Or is it just that people that work in this particular area that I work in, are more likely to be high green high blue.

Ian Macknight  26:44

That's a really good question, isn't it? I'm not sure I can give you any definitive answer. But I think it's probably well known that we tend to be quite attracted to people who are like us, you know, because they resonate with us, they say things that feel attractive to us and familiar to us. But I think if we're consciously going into a hiring process and saying, Well, actually, I do need a different mix here, then you can start to say, okay, this person maybe has got something different to me, as long as I can bring that into the team and help them gel with the team and not clash with the team, that's going to be really useful.

Ben Walker  27:16

Do you and you're more conscious of it yourself. Now Molly the you know, when you're going to work every day, you're conscious of the fact that a your green, blue turquoise, if you like your team agree in blue circles and lie, and therefore they demand certain styles of communication. And when you come to recruit, you're conscious that you've got a fairly a fairly homogenous team. Is that something you're conscious about every day?

Molly MacArthur  27:40

Yeah, but I think I look at it in a very positive way really focus on the benefits that we bring as a team and how we work, there are so many benefits to really taking the time to make careful considered decisions rather than rushing into things. And so I do think about it a lot, but in a more positive way, and in a way that motivates people. So although we were all we all really, really similar profiles, I progressed into the role. I didn't actually hire any of those people. But only last month, I went through the hiring process for somebody new. So I'm very interested to see if their profile comes out the same or not.

Ben Walker  28:19

Is there a danger? It's interesting, if you look at the digital marketing side, you might stereotypically say that a green blue profile is probably a good fit for that for that. But is there a danger that you have a unit and a business, in this case, a digital marketing programme, and then perhaps your account managers those are client facing or supplier facing a very, very red and yellow in in style that when those two teams in Mali have to sort of merge and engage with each other. There's a bit of a clash of styles, but of clash of personality.

Molly MacArthur  28:48

I wouldn't say that I've experienced any major clashes like that. But what doing the profile has allowed us to do because of the wider department have done it. If there are times where we need to have an important discussion with somebody about something or have a difficult conversation, we can reflect back and look, how shall I not do this? What's what's the way that they do not like to be communicated with? And what are the best ways to get this across to work? Well, but actually, I think it's it has worked well to have a mix of those different people in it. I've not seen any clashes yet.

Ben Walker  29:21

You're aware of the profiles of your colleagues and outside your direct team?

Molly MacArthur  29:25

Yes, I've seen some of them. Yeah. Quite useful. is very useful. Yeah. And I think most of the ones that I've seen, I've been quite surprised by and there's some people where I'd, like guessed that they were really high blue or high green but no total opposite. So it's super interesting to have look through.

Ian Macknight  29:47

So that's a really good point about the clashing and whether you get teams that are high in certain sort of styles. I'm working with a client at the moment where there are many people in the marketing department who are really quite strong in yellow and red. They are very innovative creative, described by the r&d people quite often as fluffy, because they come up with interesting ideas that don't seem to have much substance, then the people in the marketing team are saying about the r&d people that they're very blue, there are other two logical and linear, they need everything explaining to them before, it's actually the detail has been worked out anyway. So what we're doing is we're getting them together, and they're having a laugh about this actually, and kind of going, okay, fair cop, we're working to some stereotypes here. And they're actually starting to understand the benefits of the two styles, but also how to bridge the gap, how to communicate with each other. So that's been a nice opportunity to do that.

Ben Walker  30:42

It's really fascinating, isn't it actually, knowing the profiles of not just your direct reports and managers, but your colleagues elsewhere in the business is very useful, because you'd learn to understand them more, you know, the behaviours that perhaps maybe rubbed you the wrong way, you start to say, okay, I can see why they behave in that way. And what are the benefits of their behaviour? And how can we find this symbiosis, where I bring what I've got to the table, and they bring what they've got to the table to get the best benefit for the business?

Ian Macknight  31:11

Exactly. There's a there's a Cambridge professor that said once that what makes me great can also make me difficult, sometimes I think that's a really good way of thinking about it. I have all sorts of qualities. But if I dial them up too high, or use them in the wrong way, with the wrong person, they might actually come out as weaker areas. You can also flip that around Ben, and say that whatever makes me difficult, actually also makes me great. So if you're struggling with me, work backwards sometimes and see my qualities, and then you hope that people draw together. So I think you've hit on a good point there.

Ben Walker  31:44

It's fascinating, what a great discussion. And it sounds to me like something that we should all be considering doing profiling ourselves, and our teams, the business benefits and also so enjoy to the company more. Ian MacKnight. Molly MacArthur, thank you very much for your time today and your insight. It's been a great podcast, and we hope to get you both back very soon.

Molly MacArthur  32:04

Thank you.

Ian Macknight  32:05

Thank you very much.

Ally Cook  32:08

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