CIM Marketing Podcast - Episode 61: Be part of the solution, not the problem

Ally Cook  00:01

Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast the contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing podcast are not necessarily those are the companies for which they work. This series is currently being recorded via web conferencing. We apologise for any issues with the audio.

Ben Walker  00:19

Hello everybody and welcome to episode 61, 61 of the CIM marketing podcast and with us today is a beloved veteran of the show and that is Morag Cuddeford-Jones, Editor of our super sore away CIM magazine catalyst. How are you Morag?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  00:39

I am exceptionally well, I'm gonna have to dig out all my superlatives Ben, I feel like you're in a superlative mood today.

Ben Walker  00:45

Perhaps, perhaps we'll see. We'll see. But you know, the superlatives keep on coming because we have a great guest with us today from a fantastic brand. Clare Martin, who is the founder of lingerie brand Confident Tiger, and is from Blue Cactus Digital Clare, how are you?

Clare Martin  01:02

I'm very good. Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

Ben Walker  01:05

It's lovely to have you. It's lovely to have you. And we'll be looking forward to hearing from you a little bit later on. But first, before we come to you, Clare, I'm going to ask Morag to roundup while he's in this next edition of Catalyst I should say Catalyst is due on your door mat in about a week's time. So you should look for that popping through the post in the next seven days or so. But before you get it Morag, I will be able to preview it for you Morag what can we look forward to in this summer's issue?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  01:35

What can we look forward to indeed, it's interesting because as we were putting this issue together, it's very easy to be a bit eeyore-ish about it. We're talking about sustainability in this edition. And we don't normally give over a whole edition as readers will know we try and cover a broad number of different topics in the mag. But it just so came together that a lot of people were talking about sustainability. And so we really have, we really do feel like we have given this addition over to the topic. And it's not surprising because it is in the headlines so very much at the moment.

And the reason I said I don't want to be eeyore-ish is because it is very easy to listen to the news and read about events that are coming up things like cop that have just been talking about people going down to,to can advertising for example, Davos in the past lots of different events where sustainability is being talked about. And it's not being talked about in massively positive terms, it's being talked about as being the biggest challenge and problem I guess, I guess of our generation.

As I said, it's very easy to feel eeyore-ish and easy to the headlines are 1.5 degree increase in temperature, our target is not to reach that we're nowhere close to that target, it's going to be impossible to reach net zero by 2030. We cover all of those. But I really hope that we cover those issues in as much of an actionable way as possible. As much of a we're saying, come on guys that we are in a great position as a sector as marketers to do something about this.

Ben Walker  03:20

Someone has passed me a draft of your editor's letter, I don't think I'm revealing too much to our members when I quote just one quote from it, and which suggests that you think it's as much of an opportunity as it is a threat. In fact, it may be more of an opportunity than it is a threat. You're saying if there's one thing I would like to take away from this edition of Catalyst, dear reader is enthusiasm for things passion, drive, and yes, anger. So the balance of enthusiasm and passion with a bit of anger, what's made you angry.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  03:49

I wanted people to feel strongly about it more than anything. So I guess anger because we cover a number of issues in the magazine that address not only are we in a great position to be doing something about it. But perhaps some of our fraternity, sorority, some of our community aren't doing as much as they could. Or they're not doing it with the wholehearted commitment that we'd like to see. And in some ways, treating sustainability with less than 100% commitment makes you part of the problem, not the solution. It's as bad as not doing anything at all. And I think there are a lot of areas where as marketers, we need to grasp the nettle very strongly.

And we need to take our organisations, our leaders, our partners in sales, marketing, product development, production, manufacture all these things. We need to take our partners by the hand and say this is what needs to happen. We are, We are the group with our ears to the ground. We are the group that listen to consumers. We are the group that are capturing the zeitgeist. We're not the scientists, we're not the politicians. But we certainly are very much at the heart of all the things that are going on, and we can be facilitators, and we need you to come with us on this journey. Because if you do it half heartedly if you do half assedly, we're not getting anywhere at all. And so yeah, I put anger because every time I talk about this, and I'm not, I'm not what I would consider a typical environmentalist. Just like I wouldn't say I'm what I would consider a typical feminist, I am both so because I live in this world, and I have to be both. But it makes me angry. And it makes me passionate. And I feel that everyone else should be angry and passionate to

Ben Walker  05:43

Was there a light bulb moment when you came to sort of formulate this thesis before you've got to work on the magazine.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  05:50

I'm not sure if it was a lightbulb moment, or a chipping away. I think maybe the chipping away led to a light bulb moment. I think the light bulb moment was seeing when we build this edition. We don't necessarily go out with the aim of commissioning lots of articles on same topic. But the simple fact is that when people were coming to me saying we'd love to be in the magazine, we'd love to reach your readers. The overarching theme was always sustainability, sustainability, sustainability. And it gave that I guess, was maybe my light bulb moment of saying so many people want to talk about this from so many angles. This is now no longer a protest issue. It's no longer a political issue. It's no longer a side issue. It's everyone's issue, and we should be talking about it.

Ben Walker  06:39

If there's ever resist shown it's mainstream. And it's it affects commerciality, and it affects marketing in very profound ways, doesn't it? What then can we look forward to specifically is there a big cover story? Are you willing to leak a week ahead what we might say on the front page?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  06:54

Yes, there is loads of interesting stuff to delve into. So for example, the thing that I was angry about is actually our cover story. Our great writer, Mary Lou Costas was interviewing a great number of people of whom Clare Martin, our guest is one we were talking about greenwashing, the Competition and Markets Authority is targeting the fashion industry first, it's not singling it out, but it had to start somewhere. And it's going look, guys, you all make claims about how you're meeting net zero for 2030.

You all make great claims about recyclability, and circular economies and all these great things. But anytime we delve into these claims, so many of these claims are built on sand, they're just not worth the paper they're written on or you're focusing very much on one very individual thing that you're doing, which is great. And brushing the fact that you're actually not doing anything great. On the rest of the organisation, you're brushing it under the carpet. So I guess this is where part of the anger came from. This was the, it's not so much that our companies whose suppliers are doing bad things. It's that they're telling us they're doing great things.

We as consumers, we never put my consumer hat on. We are so dependent on the brands we shop for guidance, you know, we can't the decision, I'd refer to it all the time, when I'm talking to people as mental gymnastics, every time we go into a shop, we're picking this green bean grown locally, but using hydroponics and electricity and unnatural conditions to try and make this lovely green shiny thing which wouldn't normally grow in our climate. Or we're flying easily grown beans all the way from Kenya. And as a consumer, I can't spend all day in the supermarket performing these mental gymnastics trying to figure out which one is which. So we need brands to provide that shorthand, but when they're doing it cynically, or as I said earlier, half assedly You know, if they're doing it cynically or half assedly then I feel let down. And I feel like by extension, I've done a bad thing. Not only have I been let down, but I've now also become part of the problem.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  06:55

That's interesting, now Clare Martin, welcome, welcome to the show. You have been interviewed for this feature. We won't reveal too much about what you said in it. But first of all, you tell us a little bit about your brand Confident Tiger lingerie brand. Why Confident Tiger?

Clare Martin  09:18

So the roots of the brand because I basically had this issue and I totally agree with everything you've said Morag like nodding enthusiastically although no one can see me. The eye I couldn't find a sustainable option or an option that I found sustainable. And there was on kind of my wavelength in my bra size, anywhere on the market that I that I wanted, and my bra actually broke during lockdown. I mean, I've got more than one but it's like my favourite bra. So I started on a quest to try and find one couldn't find one anywhere. My husband just said, Well, why don't you design one and So it's been a long journey, I'm still only halfway towards getting the bra that I wanted.

But I felt really passionately about sustainable materials or greener materials, like the fashion industry produces so much waste. And I'm not just talking about, you know, getting materials produced, or returns, it's everything. So much waste overall. One of the things a lot of people don't realise is that when clothing is returned, you know, someone might buy five different sizes of one item that didn't realise that actually, when those four other items that don't fit are returned, they often aren't resold, they often go to landfill. And that was something that I found astonishing. So one of the priorities of the brand, or one of the main missions of the brand, is to find the right fit for you. So you don't have to buy five different sizes, you buy one size that you know is going to fit you with a fitting system that I am licencing at the moment that I know will provide the perfect fit, and then creating bra sizes that fit along those lines.

Ben Walker  11:06

So this is a really exciting idea. So how is that done? Without revealing too many of your commercial secrets, you're designing a fitting system, which would radically reduce the amount of returns. So how do people do that in their own home? How, you know, how does that work?

Clare Martin  11:21

So it's actually a so I've tested out a lot of different bra calculators, bra fit calculators, there are lots out there. And I found the most reliable, which is the technology I'm licencing at the moment was developed by a company called Boob or Bust, which is designed for larger busted women, but also works across the spectrum. And it's an at home measuring system where you can take four different measurements of your body, plug them into the system, and it will say this is your suggested size.

Ben Walker  11:50

We're getting better fitted clothes or clothes that are more likely to fit is a sustainable aim as well as a commercial aim. One of the issues that we've been discussing quite a lot on this podcast and we'll we know we're going to find more about it in Morag's upcoming magazine is the idea of greenwashing. That there is a almost a divide setting up within the retail space between companies that actually have sustainability at heart is that's why they are doing it. That's why the brand exists, which is the case with your brand. And companies that are sort of pegging a sustainable ticket in the hope that that will attract the more customers but it's not at their heart and how the consumers define between those two? And what are the risks do you think for brands themselves?

Clare Martin  12:38

First of all, it's obviously much much easier to start with a brand that has those values at the at the heart of them, than introducing them, and trying to trying to adapt your strategy. But as marketers, you know, your role is to adapt to the market to make sure you have the most relevant messaging. And from a consumer point of view, it's very, very difficult. And this is the problem that it is down to the brand's to communicate that consumers don't realise that the message is not communicated enough that any unsold clothing or a lot of unsold clothing goes to landfill, it isn't resold. They think I buy something in four sizes, I returned for three of those one fits, that's just gonna be resold to someone else, right. So I think from a consumer point of view, brands have a responsibility to promote their values.

And that's part of the CMA review is to say, this needs to happen. brands should not be should not be glazing over what they're doing, they should be really transparent with their practices from a consumer because you can't make consumers research into every purchase, especially now. They don't have the time people don't have the time now people are back in offices. They're not home working all the time. They don't they don't have any time to research into those choices. And there are a lot of places where consumers can find the information about a brand's values and how ethical as well as sustainable brands are. And there is there are more and more websites are coming that are launching that are helping the decision to helping consumers make better decisions. But I still think it's it's a big brand responsibility and it needs to form part of the marketing. What is your messaging? How are you educating people about this? Marketing is about education, as well as promoting your products and selling your products.

Ben Walker  14:39

So that goes back to your earlier point Morag that it's the the focus should be it should be incumbent on the producers and not the consumers to find this stuff out. You want to be fashionable, which many of our listeners I sure do want to be fashionable but also want to be sustainable. It shouldn't be their responsibly, to have to find out who has got the sustainability credentials?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  15:04

Well, absolutely. I mean, the one person who knows what goes into their products is the people who produce the products. It's they don't have to hunt around anything, you know exactly what's in your product, where it's come from, where it's been produced. And if you don't, that's a real problem. Supply chain transparency is another massive issue where companies are sitting there going, well, we're whiter than white, or in this case, greener than green. And then you point out to them, but you use X Y, Z supplier, who are dreadful, but that's not us.

Well, it is you if it comes from them, it's it's you. But I think the other issue is we need the education, we need the transparency. And I wonder if part of the lack of transparency is a fear that brands feel they will be found out. Now, when I mean found out, even brands who have the best will, as you were saying earlier, you know these, it's easy to start up. Because you can start up with a clean slate, literally clean you can you can make those decisions from the ground up and keep going. reengineering reverse engineering processes is a lot harder. But the being found out, let's reframe that as we are honestly making a step towards and we are making more steps towards. And the transparency of this is where we are, this is what we've always been. And now we're moving this forward. So you can make you can now make an informed choice by saying we do use fossil fuels in our production we're working to not but currently we use X percent of fossil fuels. We currently source garments made in Bangladesh, we are working towards better labour practices. X percent of our contracts are still stuck with x, we are working to extricate ourselves from it, you know, we're moving towards an environment where ESG reporting which has environmental, social and governance, which is a phrase that really trips off the consumer tongue, I do think that at some point, I might have to come up with a cypher for that that's a little more consumer friendly.

But that is becoming an increasingly important mandate for companies where they they have to report financially with their annual reports, we're increasingly seeing them voluntarily create ESG reports. And I hope we're moving to a point where they will actually have to create ESG reports. And when they do that, that can trickle down. It can be translated by journalists, in as much as you see in the national press on the headline, business pages, Marks and Spencers profits rise, fall, everything else. Those are easy headlines that the man on the street and the man and the woman on the street can understand that company's doing well or badly. So if ESG reporting becomes part of that, you can say XYZ retailers, green credentials improved, or, or fell over a period of time we can see that from the business pages that then translates into how do we communicate that consumers on the rails and on the shelves?

Ben Walker  18:04

What part do you think Clare Martin, cultural leadership media leadership, if you like has to play. I mean, I'm I have to put my cards on the table here and be honest, I've never actually watched an episode of Love Island, but I did see the headlines very recently that they have decided to use secondhand clothing throughout for all of their contestants wardrobes, whereas before I believe they use very fast fashion brands. But what role does that sort of cultural leadership have you know, that a very popular show popular with people who follow fashion saying, actually, we're going to use vintage and recycled and secondhand clothing to dress all of our beautiful contestants.

Clare Martin  18:44

So I think this is a great move. However, I'm very sceptical about any stunts like this. So yeah, obviously, it's great. If that is the case, and they are 100% doing as they say, there are still reservations, though, is it? Is it just we're trying to bring a brand new audience on board? And actually, how else? What are the moves that they're making to be more sustainable and greener? It's one part of it. It's like anything, you know, a company h&m saying, Oh, we use organic cotton. Okay, well, what else are you doing for that? Or it's like any other brand saying, Well, we're ticking this box. What about the rest does have to be a one stage at a time thing. You know, you can't expect brands to be able to do everything at once I understand financial limitations, cultural change within the organisation, as well as externally. So great. thumbs up from me, but what else? What are you going to do next time? Are you going to continue using this? Yeah, are you next, don't forget about it next year.

Ben Walker  19:48

You a fan of Love Island, Morag?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  19:51

To my absolute horror, I discovered my 14 year old son is anyway, that's enough of a comment on that. No, I'm absolutely with you, Clare. I think it's It's a statement of intention. And if the stop flying people to Ibiza doesn't make a TV show who all live in Essex, then that might be a more sustainable set. But I also think it's quite interesting. I wonder how far that message will get, you know, the company ASOS Ben? Yep. What it stands for what it used to stand for was as seen on screen. Yeah. And so its whole purpose when it was starting up was to find companies that supplied a piece of clothing that either was the same or looked very like something a big star had worn. So Angelina Jolie in Mr. And Mrs. Smith will very, very old film, we'll find the specific gene shape that she wore it and you can buy it from this retail and these other retailers.

Love island’s recognised that everyone, not everyone. But a lot of people who watch Love Island are inspired by the outfits and want to wear exactly what these people did. It was very easy when they named the company these people wore things from because they could go out and buy it. That was it. That was a tie in it was easy. But now if you see someone in itty bitty little shorts, and a tank top, they might not know which shop it came from because it's an eBay vintage. But they may easily go to any number of high street stores and buy a very, very similar outfit. So I don't think as you know, as has been mentioned in the cover story, not too many spoilers, educating behaviour change. I'm not convinced that Love Island is going to send all of its viewers to eBay. Looking for Daisy Duke type shorts, I think it's just going to send them to Google Shopping, by putting in Daisy Duke type shorts, and they'll buy it fresh from somewhere else.

Ben Walker  21:47

Brilliant point, brilliant point, Claire Martin and that is that they will mimic it through fast fashion not because they weren't able to find a vintage pair of Daisy Duke shorts.

Clare Martin  21:56

Exactly. This is what I was gonna say is that actually gives more reason for brands to launch new collections that might have been last year's fashion or the years the year before. And I very much doubt they're going to brush off or dust off those storage boxes in their huge warehouses and say, Oh, this was what we did last year. It's been seen on Love Island, let's just re bring this stock out even they've only got limited stock, it will probably say, Okay, here's a designer, can you just redevelop this? Or can we just get this tech pack back to the factory to make more of these rather than using the stock they just didn't sell? And I think that's worrying, you know, because they have what's going to happen to that stock in that warehouse? Is it going to go to landfill? Is it going to be incinerated, it's not going to be recycled. I think that's another part of this whole problem. Number one, the best thing any consumer can do is wear what they've already got, don't buy more, don't feel consumerism, you know, I now have a capsule wardrobe.

And I'm fully aware that every week I wear the same five pieces of clothing. But that is the most eco friendly way of doing it. And I must say I am not the most eco person like my friends will think oh my god, Clare, you run a you run a green brand, you must just be absolutely impeccable and everything. And I say no, I'm a human. I do what I can do I make better choices than I used to. But in terms of making every single decision in a green way, it's not always possible for me and my family. And I think if you're making the bet, you know making the best out of the situation you have. That's the most you can do. But anyway, the second best thing you can do is recycle. So buy things that already exist, don't feel the new production cycle. Don't fuel fast fashion.

Ben Walker  23:40

But that's interesting, isn't it? First of all, the Love islands of this world showing doesn't mean a change in consumer behaviour. In fact, it may actually embed bad consumer behaviour when people try to mimic it through fast fashion. But on the recycling front perhaps there is something there you know, I had a conversation with a lady, a young woman at coincidentally the CIM sustainability summit who is a member of a clothing recycle rental platform called her spelt HURR I never heard of it. I think it only does ladies wear but very popular.

There are a number of these platforms now where people can buy actually very high quality clothes, wear them for, you know, a few times or even just one time and then put them back on the platform. This lady started as a buyer or a renter. You know, she rented a few outfits. She said she has to go to four or $5 events a year and wanted a nice dress for those events. And so she would rent them wear them once and then put them back on the platform. She then realised she could rent out clothes so she went and spent money on high quality fashion, wore it once and then other women loaned it through the platform. Is that perhaps an interesting avenue for the future of fashion to make us more sustainable.

Clare Martin  24:55

I think it's definitely becoming more popular and actually this is one of the things that's exciting me about the future is that there are so many brands that are doing this. I mean, competition is probably not great for them. But there was a couple of months ago, a brand on Dragon's Den presenting for children's clothes, clothing, little loop. And, again, there are lots of other brands that are doing the same thing. But it's trying to make that a unique proposition. And I'm actually working with quite a few clients at the moment through the through Blue Cactus Digital, that are exploring options to make this easier for the consumer. It can be a very complicated concept, thinking, hang on, how does this work? And the other concern that I have?

Ben Walker  25:45

Well, hang on what. why is it complicated? I've never used them, but they tend to be ladies were mainly have you used them? And why? Why is it complicated?

Clare Martin  25:55

So a lot of these companies use credits rather than money. So you sign up for a subscription, you pay 10 pounds a month, you get x amount of credits, then you list your clothing that you want to sell. And then someone says, Yeah, I'm interested in this, I want to buy it. So they'll buy it with their credits, or they can bite with like their own cash. But from a brand ownership point of view, the logistics of doing everything can be quite complicated. But then the other side, if I'm selling or renting or swapping my clothes. How does that work? So do I use my own packaging? From a green point of view? How are those customers sending those packages? Are they using the most carbon positive way of sending those? Or is there a much bigger carbon impact, because they're choosing an option, and they haven't been educated on the best way to send those

Ben Walker  26:46

So Morag, it's an interesting idea. It seems to be gaining in popularity, but there are flaws and there is friction within lots of new ideas that we need to overcome to make these things a sort of green reality.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  26:59

So this is where I think big marketers big business can step in. So when we've got big fashion, and then they're going right, we need to set up our own circular idea. We need to set up our own rental service. Well hang on a minute big fashion, you have the logistics, you have the staff, you have the warehouses, you have the pickup points, can we not start working in concert with all these people who have built fan bases and customer bases and done all the hard work of reaching out and customer education, it's not going to dent your brand, it's surely going to enhance it. So go for it. And again, I go back all the way to saying marketers are the fulcrum. They're the ones that bring everything together and give everyone the chance to work together. And they're the ones who pull everyone into the idea and can make it happen.

Ben Walker  27:50

So there's an idea is working in partnership, Clare, in fact, we would that be on your list of things that we can do now to to improve our lot and make ourselves more sustainable, not just in fashion has Morag says, but in interiors and other large industries.

Clare Martin  28:08

Yeah, I mean, imagine how great it would be if you could take your for example, taking the idea of IKEA take your Ikea furniture, although obviously quite big and bulky. Say he go can you go and resell this they've got a resale programme, you get a credit against either buying other resold furniture or new furniture which obviously isn't eradicating the problem, but you're swapping one piece of furniture for another rather than buying a piece get taken it to the tip-done. Yeah, and then IKEA, recycled that furniture upcycle that furniture, and then resell it.

Ben Walker  28:42

We talked about what the brands have done, but what role specifically Clare, do you think marketers can have done making these some of these ideas a reality? You know, what, what part can they play in educating brands, educated consumers bringing the two together, facilitating this sort of stuff?

Clare Martin  28:58

There, I think it's rewriting the story? Rewriting your brand story. And communicating that across all your marketing channels, you know, consistent messaging, that goes back to what you are doing, what you maybe aren't doing particularly well, but what you're working towards. And I think that's going to become a much bigger part of brand stories, and accepting responsibility or accepting that you're not ticking all the boxes, but you need to change and actually be a key part in the business to drive that forward. You know, as marketers, your you know, part of your role is to see what consumer trends are, what consumers are talking about and how you can turn that into part of your branding or part of your story. So I think it's thinking, trying to tell people or tell the consumers communicate to consumers, how this life is gonna be better for them. You know.

Ben Walker  30:00

 We've spoken a lot about negatives and some positives or anything you particularly positive and excited about for marketers or as marketers, in this sort of next six months to a year,

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  30:08

We're on the cusp of a disruption, just in the way that financial services was disruptive. Now, when Monzo, Starling, all those banks came up, they haven't killed the traditional bank, they have about 8% of the market. Still, even the ones who are doing really well, I mean, Starling has something like its revenues went up 600%. So it's not these aren't companies that don't work. But the challenges, they didn't kill the traditional banks, but they've very much forced them to change the way they worked. So I can see all these small companies that are grabbing the attention of bits of the market, they're really plugging into a consumer desire to do something.

And they can then show to the bigger companies, A- customers want this. At the moment, you're forcing your consumers, they may not be proactively going out and buying sustainability, they're still buying from you, but they're doing so with a lot of disquiet, you're forcing them into unsustainable behaviour. And there's only so long that last. So you take the lead, you use your considerable resources, I'm not saying it's not going to cost, it will cost you and it will cost the consumer to change. So if you can change and you can follow the example partner with change your processes, whatever you will be the fintechs 12 months on, I fully believe that if you embrace it, and do the hard yards, you'll be fine

Ben Walker  31:38

But Clare the disruptors the confident Tigers of this world will give the big boys and girls a much needed kick up the backside.

Clare Martin  31:47

Really hoping so. But I so I've been working marketing for 12 years now. And the last three years, I have seen the biggest shift in consumer behaviour, people looking to the small brands. And I feel like every month I'm reporting different things to my marketing clients. Because it is so volatile that this provides opportunity, I think for marketers, and it's I find it so I mean, it's a roller coaster. But I find it so exciting that, you know one month Facebook ads are shot up in terms of returns, the next month plummeted, but Google ads have gone up or email marketing popularity, you know, it's an it's constantly changing. And I think that is a reflection of actually how wider consumer trends are changing. And you know, we're at the beginning of lockdown where it was all about, let's be more eco, let's be more sustainable.

Let's research into small businesses we can support to keep them afloat rather than the big, the bigger players. And now it's going back to you I am bit concerned from a consumer point of view, I'm really concerned about money. But actually, I'm still going to be looking for the businesses that that give me transparency. And that have a lower price point that are providing the quality that the products are performing their purpose. But they actually are still making sure that their products are sustainable. I don't know I just think it's a really exciting time, especially for small businesses that that are going to lead the way in changing the bigger brands, momentum

Ben Walker  33:29

Volatile, Morag Cuddleford-Jones but it's exciting a bit like Catalyst magazine is most of the time whether I should repeat in seven days or so. Look, look out for it from the postman on postwoman popping it through the letterbox. Finally I'll give the final word to you Morag you can wrap up this fantastic organ that's coming through our letterbox as soon and three words what were those three words be?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  33:55

And definitely going with exciting and volatile? Passionate.

Ben Walker  33:59

Exciting, volatile and passionate. That sounds like a good mix. To me. Ladies, thank you very much indeed for joining us on the CIO marketing podcast today. Clare Martin from Confident Tiger. Morag Cuddleford-Jones, editor of Catalyst. Thank you very much for your time and your insights and we'll see you both again on another show quite soon.

Ally Cook  34:21

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