Episode 76: Stress and speaking out

Sophie Peterson  00:03

Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.

 

Ben Walker  00:19

Hello everybody, and welcome to this CIM Marketing Podcast. And today we're joined by our great editor of Catalyst Morag Cuddefore-Jones, and Chris Dunne, who is head of marketing at Thinkbox. How are you guys?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  00:34

Very well, thank you very much, always the enthusiastic introduction.

 

Ben Walker  00:38

Great to have you on both on the show. And as you are used to by now when Morag's with us, we're here to discover and explore what's in the next fantastic issue of Catalyst magazine, which is coming out pretty much contemporaneously with this podcast. So we get some many insights today from Morag on what you can expect to find in the issue. We're also going to be talking about some of the themes in the issue with Chris a little bit later on. But we'll kick off with you Morag. What are the key themes and ideas we can expect to find in this quarters issue?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  01:10

Well, of course, there's always 1000s of different ideas in every issue, Ben, but I think the overarching thing that struck me with this one was that it all seems to be about meeting challenges, it always seems like there's so many challenges ahead of us personal and professional, it feels like we're constantly firefighting, I think I say to friends and colleagues on a regular basis, when can I get off this blooming hamster wheel? Or the you know, can I step off the treadmill just for a minute. So meeting challenges, whether they are involving new trends, whether it's involving internal demands, whether it's meeting something surprising, you know, some something comes up at us at 100 miles an hour, and we have to deal with it? Do we have the resources to deal with it in the right way? Do we have to deal with it at all? So very much it felt like it was an issue of answers and suggestions. I'd hope if anything, it's helpful. There you go I want to be helpful.

 

Ben Walker  02:08

A couple stories to talk about Speak Out or Shut Up, which I thought was particularly provocative.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  02:15

There you go, the helpful advice is to do two completely contradictory things how's that? So Speak Out or Shut Up? We always talk about brand purpose, what's our brand purpose? And therefore the natural extrapolation of that is to think, well, if I have a purpose, then I have to speak out on issues. And in some cases, yes. But also, this is the Shut up bit, in some cases, No, shut up, you know, not your zoo, not your monkeys. So this is what we were covering. We were looking at the variety of events, things that that crop up not not planned events, necessarily, but things that have cropped up recently, that brands have felt, is it part of our purpose to jump on this particular bandwagon? And some do it incredibly well. So for example, we featured Reebok, which supports pride. And it doesn't just support pride by sticking out a rainbow flag for one month every year. They invest in communities, they create products, they live their values as an organisation. So it seems like this is a 12 month thing for them. So they have licence to talk about it instead of just covering all their social media in in rainbow flags. Equally, there is some contentiousness about taking part even when you have licence to do that. We looked at Iceland, the supermarket, which has developed a low cost actually zero cost it's Interest Free, Credit System for families who are struggling to pay for their groceries. Now this on the surface seems like a good thing. But then criticisms were, well, all you're doing is driving people in debt deeper into debt. And they came up with a very rational explanation, which was to say, during the year families with small children, three for three huge chunks of the year rely on school meals, for example, their children get school meals, so their grocery bills are slightly less. But when you have the summer holidays, their salaries have not changed. Their salaries have been the same 12 monthly increments, but their grocery costs have rocketed because the kids are at home, they have friends, round, ice lollies, whatever is happening. So this credit is to tide them over for a short period of time. It's a very small amount, I think it's 100 pound credit, and it's zero 0% interest, so they're not charging for that facility at all. And in the end, you know, the head of marketing or the managing director I think it was, said: show me a family that isn't buying their groceries on credit card most of the time anyway, pretty hypocritical for you to say buying things on credit doesn't happen with everybody anyway, so I thought it was interesting.  And then there's many more examples explored in the cover story of brands that do it well brands that don't play so well in this space and advice, you know, saying, you can't just war room an event you have to have, you know, two, three years of building, the purpose, the response, the understanding of how your brand wants to react and what your brand can react to. So that when an event happens, and you react in 24 hours that that wasn't the job you did, this big, long period of time was the job you did this small 24 hours was the reaction. And just making sure that you understand that if you are going to stick your head above the parapet, even when you do it, well, you're gonna get shot at BrewDog notoriously still get shot at Iceland was trying to do a great thing still got shot at. You have to be brave, I think in those situations and know that not everyone's going to walk around and go Oh, aren't you wonderful? Aren't you just such a nice brand, however nice you are and however, well your purpose is, they're still going to take potshots at you.

 

Ben Walker  05:58

There's a few things to unpack there isn't I mean, first of all, you've got to have the credentials, you've got to develop the credentials. To do this stuff over a number of years is going to be the tip of an iceberg when to mix the metaphors. When you pop your head above the parapet, it must be the tip of an iceberg. But even then, even if you've got the credentials, even if you've done this development work, even if you've established a position over a number of years, you will still get shot at. So having to understand those two things concurrently is quite difficult for brands. And presumably that's where the shutter comes in is that sometimes it's better is by implication is not to say anything at all, is that right?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  06:37

The Shut up is not telling brands don't be too fearful and don't engage. It's recognise your strengths and your weaknesses. So for example, if there's an organisation that with the most well meaning feelings in the world wants to talk about and support diversity, for example. And then they're not a diverse organisation themselves. What are you going to expect, you know that charity starts at home purpose starts at home, you know, you you're talking about sticking your head above the parapet, well make sure the whole bloody castle is built out of the right bricks in the first place, you know, and then and then go with it. And you know, Twitter, Twitter is the ultimate town hall of nonsense. You'll have people who can start a fight in an empty room there. So there will be brickbats. But if you're confident in yourself, that you and your company have the right to speak in this space, that don't be perfect. Not everyone can be perfect all the time, you can acknowledge your failings, you're not going to be able to do everything. You won't solve anything overnight. But that you have a legitimate reason to be in that space. And if you don't, it is not cowardice, it is not ignoring the issue to simply step back and go, not our thing. It may be a wake up call to say this isn't our thing to talk about publicly. But this is a big issue. We need to work on this ourselves.

 

Ben Walker  08:03

But like so much of marketing then it's about knowing when to make that Gambit, what if and when to make that Gambit, you know, have we got the credentials? Is there a benefit to us and our consumers for us making this Gambit? And are we willing to do the battling to take the flack that is inevitably going to come our way? Should we make this Gambit.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  08:24

Exactly because it's going to step outside marketing, isn't it? So you may have the bravest marketing team in the world, but if the CEO gets the collywobbles, they're going to be the first person to turn on you if suddenly the press go bananas and the CEO goes, well, that was an unapproved ad campaign, I just really don't understand what they're doing. And then suddenly, there's you find the CMO suddenly pitches up in the so and so is leaving the company by mutual consent or something, you know, these these nicer, gentle words. But yes, it's as as much as we always talk about marketing is talking about our product outside, it's as much about doing the work internally as well. And saying, I am going to put our company in this position and you all have to be behind us not just the marketing team.

 

Ben Walker  09:03

Yeah, and that's when things can go wrong when that isn't the case isn't it can still be a great campaign. But if it hasn't got internal buy in it can nevertheless go wrong no matter how good a campaign it is.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  09:14

Well, I mean, you just need to look at sorry to drag them in and give them another kicking. But it seems to be the whipping boy of the moment. But the BBC is the ultimate brand that is so thoroughly confused over what it should mean to people how brave it should be, you know, I'm not going to get into the whole who's politically what and who's doing this and what does constitute impartiality. But if you just look at the wrangles they've got at the moment over whether their staff are allowed to say something, whether they join in with criticising them, whether they support them whether they stay neutral, it feels like that as a brand has really got no idea where it should be standing and how its brand ambassadors and I don't care if it's brand ambassadors or freelancers. I'm a freelancer but I'm fairly certain that the Chartered Institute of Marketing wouldn't be bouncing around with massively opposed views to what to the ones they hold, or certainly not publicly anyway. But this isn't about silencing people or making them toe a company line. It's about making sure that all your brand values are clear, communicated and lived. And at the moment, as far as I can tell from the BBC. They really aren't.

 

Ben Walker  10:27

Brought in sharp relief, of course, recently with Gary Lineker around which Mr. Lineker sort of refused to back down and was nevertheless rehired. And everyone has a different different view on that, but one I think we can all agree on is that there is a confusion there about what its purpose is and what's its people's purpose is, whether those people are employees or freelancers. Gary Lineker, of course, is a diverse voice for the BBC and say that about him. And one thing you've always done, a Catalyst is bringing lots of diverse voices, different opinions, different ideas into the magazines, and one of whom is Mr. Chris Dunn, who is with us today, as I introduced earlier, and Chris is, as I said, head of marketing at Thinkbox. But is also a mental health trained professional. Is that right, Chris?

 

Chris Dunne  11:18

Well, that is right, technically, yes. Professional might be pushing it a little far. I wouldn't want to get in trouble with the tax man on that basis. But I am certainly - expert. Experts fine. Yeah, that's that's non tax deductible. I formally a Mental Health First Aider, which you know, is a qualification that anyone can do. But it does mean that I have some grounding experience in terms of language in terms of different mental health conditions. And like any First Aider trained to assist if there are any emergencies in mental health situation.

 

Ben Walker  12:01

You appear in the magazine in one of my favourite regular sections, which is Catalyst clinic, and despite the name, it's not always medical, it's all sorts of issues and challenges that marketers get this time it is medical, and we're talking about mental health within organisations as marketers, and a little bit of a overview from you Morag, what this section does and what sort of topics you've covered in it.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  12:25

So we've we've covered all sorts in Catalyst clinic, we've talked, we've talked about how to do your social media, we've talked about how to find your voice when you're standing on stage and want to, you know, broadcast and, and make up an engaging podcast, for example, we had a whole thing on how to do a good podcast, which I had to then reread and go, Oh, God, I don't do that. And oh, God, I keep doing that when people tell me not to. So it's lots of how tos, it's not really designed as being an academic thing. It's more that it's a head scratcher. And you're sitting there going, Oh, are we doing this right? Other companies seem to do this. And I can't tell the difference between what they're doing and what we're doing. But they seem to be much better at it. And it's getting four experts together to share diverse opinions. You know, they don't all have to come out with the same same answers. In fact, I hope I don't, because otherwise, it'd be for extremely boring columns. But it's just really to say, you know, particularly in the area of mental health, Chris, I know, I don't know if you've, you've experienced this, but lately, because I've taken an interest in it. I've read so many conflicting things. You know, mental health days are great mental health days are a sticking plaster mental health days are a disaster, because everyone else is at work, and you're freaking out. So it's to try and cut through that sort of noise. People will read about a new trend or a topic and go well, which position should I take? It's not designed to tell them which position to take. But it's designed to explain what those positions are.

 

Ben Walker  13:49

This is absolutely fascinating Chris, isn't it as a non medical person, but what seems to me to be without doubt is there is much more debate about how we deal with mental health issues than with with physical health issues, we got a colleague who's just injured herself cooking, it's a horrible thing to happen when you injure yourself cooking with knives, and so on and so forth. But that doesn't strike me as much debate amongst the medical professional about how one deals with that.

 

Chris Dunne  14:13

Not only the medical professional, but in any professional capacity. You know, we don't have generally I am generalising but generally we don't have the language. And we don't have the trust in who's to blame and where the where the capacity lies, and, you know, with physical health, you know, that was a physical accident that happened, but you know, there's procedure in place, there's precedent, and I think that we understand professionally what to happen when we get physically ill, but we still increasingly feel the stigma that surrounds a lot of mental ill health means that there's a there's fear of being perceived as weak. There's fear of being perceived as to blame. And so we're still not comfortable talking about our Mental Health in the same breath as our physical health. And I use the Mental Health First Aid in this as an example, you know, we've probably all in our businesses, you know, someone will be a First Aider in the same way, some will be fire warden, and then they'll have the hi vis vest. And you, you know that there's probably a couple of people that could, you know, help you if you burst a varicose vein or they know where the defibrillator is. But with Mental Health First Aid, it's still not adopted to anywhere near the same level. But I think that's also about what those people at the top of the organisation are doing as well. I don't expect my CEO to be able to, you know, come and bandage me up if I'm needed. But, you know, for them to engage in the area of mental health, I think signals something quite different to the organisation, it's that we take it seriously as a business that some of the senior management are willing to undergo this education and start these conversations.

 

Ben Walker  15:57

Do you think there's still a natural reaction's too often amongst marketing managers and high level managers and business? Generally, to just give people a day off if they say they're struggling in the mental health space, and not really knowing much more how to deal with the issue in their teams than that?

 

Chris Dunne  16:16

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a common reaction. And it's a it's the ultimate bandaid, isn't it, you know, any other health condition doesn't heal overnight from from time, there needs to be an end, like any other health problem needs to be some element of diagnosis, and some kind of support that's provided be that, you know, be that counselling or, or whatever that might be, but but just to say, Go away, it will sort itself out and come back again, and everything will be fine. It's simply not enough. That comes down again, to training and education, I think, you know, managers and senior managers need to be equipped to handle those situations when, when people do come to them with those problems, that's the hardest thing possibly to do is if you are struggling with your mental health, to vocalise that in your business and, and that feels like a very scary thing to do, I think.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  17:09

So you mentioned that the key word there diagnosis when we feel unwell, we've kind of got a vague idea of what's going on, you know, I feel a bit queasy, I need to lie down and stop moving around, I've got a terrible headache, I need to sit in a dark room, there appears to be a lot of blood coming out of my artery, I should probably go and get a bandage, but mental health. And I've experienced this myself, as have members of my family. It's insidious. And you don't know am I just stressed at work? Have I just been doing too much? Is this person being unreasonable? Or am I being a bit pathetic about it? And there will be occasions when you can put on your big girl pants and off you go. But have you found in your role as a Mental Health First Aider, that you're actually helping people understand what's happening to them before they can even go and say, Actually, yes, I have a mental health issue and I need help. Are they coming to you and go going? Am I burnt out? Or am I being a wuss?

 

Chris Dunne  18:05

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is helping people to see where the distinction lies between the daily stresses that we all experience and when that starts to become a period of mental ill health. So when it starts to impact on your ability to go about your, your job or your you're not getting pleasure out of your leisure activities, there are certain signs that you can look for, to show that it's starting to become something more serious. And I think that is also unfortunately it's it's one of their kind of catch 22s that some of the most common mental ill health conditions that we talk about anxiety, depression are things that we all feel everybody feels at certain points and element of so it's very easy for you to talk your way out of it being a serious thing that needs addressing, you know, you assume it will pass you know you are and you know, we work in very high pressure roles in marketing, you know, I talk about this in, in the piece in Catalyst. You know, marketers are often in this very unique middle point of an organisation, they're often the bridge builders between different functions of the business. And so, you know, having strong relationships often there as like a bridge, they're holding the burden of projects a lot of the time they're firefighting when things go wrong. So you know, it's quite a unique a position to be in an organisation and that comes with its own added stresses and problems. And I think that that the climate now that we're all in, marketers are under a lot more pressure to do more with less money to look at costs to look at performance. So it really is a kind of a perfect storm at the moment I think.

 

Ben Walker  19:48

It is the strongest is the bridge metaphors, fantastic. way of thinking of it isn't because the point about the bridge is the bit that has to be the strongest is that in the middle. Do you think it's getting worse? Do you think it's becoming a bigger problem as we do face, you know, tightening budgets and so on and so forth Chris? Is this something that's becoming a bit of a modern challenge?

 

Chris Dunne  20:08

I think I think two things are probably happening in tandem. It is, it's certainly becoming more of a challenge. And, you know, the macro considerations of still the after effects of the pandemic, and what's happening, you know, people are having these pressures at home, and then coming into work and having, you know, similar pressures with their job in terms of what, you know, the economic pressures they're under, but I think what is encouraging is, awareness is growing into different types of mental health conditions. And so that is stimulating more conversation. It's almost the, you know, there's a, there's a sense that there are more problems, but actually, that could be a result of more talking about these problems, and they've always been there. But perhaps slowly, and gradually, through, you know, through through some programmes like introducing Mental Health First Aid into the workplace, some of these conversations can happen. So whilst things get more stressful, organisations start to think about how do we respond for our people to make sure we're supporting them and directing them to the help they need.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  21:13

It's interesting, isn't it? Because when I was talking earlier about the Speak Up or Shut Up piece, and we were looking at marketers having to be brave, and making sure their CEOs didn't throw them under the bus, that's after the fact. But before the fact you need that support, because if you're going to get those brickbats, it is almost impossible not to take things personally, you know, even if your company can say, professionally, we've given you the sign off to do this. But then people are going after you going, Oh, well, the CMO does, this doesn't know what they're talking about. Or even, you even have the customer service, don't you where there's these email resources, saying, if you haven't had any satisfaction with customer service, here's the CMOS email address, email them, here's the CEOs. So in a sort of always on culture, it's very hard to get away from the trolls, you know, we say don't feed the trolls. Now they're self feeding. They're perfectly capable of sustaining life on their own. So how organisations don't just deal with mental health problems when they arrive, and don't just recognise workloads, but recognise the position they put their staff in, because they are shoving them onto the front line, in a lot of cases.

 

Ben Walker  22:22

It is a really important point, isn't it? The marketers are or to some degree should be the risk takers in a business, they do have to take risks and with risks, always comes anxiety, one would think.

 

Chris Dunne  22:34

Yeah, and there's always a healthy amount of anxiety, you know, that's the thing that drives us and makes most people in this line of work excited to get up in the morning and to deliver those, you know, envelope pushing campaigns, the things that will deliver success for their business and everything that they're looking for, from from their job, but, but that there has to be a point in which, you know, they, they are comfortable, to be able to raise a hand when those levels of stress and anxiety get too much. And I think that because we are often in a cycle, it's something of a roller coaster, then you just expect you're you're in one of the peaks and troughs at the moment. And I'll just, I'll style it out until it sorts itself out. And, you know, we have to, we have to move on from that. You wouldn't keep walking on that mild fracture to get from A to B thinking it was gonna heal itself, you know, you need to be able to put your hand up and say, I think there's a break here.

 

Ben Walker  23:30

I find this idea of mental first aid really compelling because the point about the fracture is that you go into the doctors, you don't know whether you've just bruised your foot, or you've got a hairline fracture, or you've done your metatarsal and you don't necessarily know at that stage, what it is, you don't know the scale of the problem. By having a mental first aid system in your organisation's people are able to detect the scale of problem early on, and therefore we know how to deal with it. And as you say, I mean, a lot of the problem with mental health is that people in themselves don't know the scale of problems and as Morag was saying, don't even themselves recognise it in themselves all the time. So by having this sort of mental first aid process within organisations a function if you like, and mental health, first aid in an organisation strikes me as a real, one real tangible thing marketing leaders can do to address some of these issues.

 

Chris Dunne  24:25

Absolutely, and Mental Health First Aid England recommends that a minimum of 10% of your workforce should be qualified as a mental health first-aider and I would consider that a minimum because, you know, you've got to think about there's enough people in different departments and different levels, so that everybody feels that somebody is accessible to them, that they can go and talk to. And it's not just in that direction. You know, the point of having all these different people in places that they are well positioned to be able to observe of how people are behaving, if there's any signs of behaviour change, and they can try and preempt that it doesn't always have to be about, okay, let's wait till this escalated to be a big problem. Actually, there's a lot that can be done at the early stage before it becomes a problem. And that's what having more of those qualified eyes and ears in the organisation the better.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  25:23

Talking about, before it escalates, I mean, in your experience, and obviously, having had some actual training for it, you said, being there to observe? Are you able to observe just the normal functioning of your company and go, do you know what, we could change X Y Z process, because it stresses people out, they may not have a mental health issue as a result of it yet.

 

Chris Dunne  25:50

Yep and this is this is the the point on education and language, I think, is really important. So now that the more people that are educated, the more that we become comfortable with some of the language around mental health is some of those factors start to come into the decision making. So when you're looking at scoping out a project, actually pressure points for team members, as human beings are already in prior high pressure situations start to become a factor in how that work is distributed and expected timelines. So we start to think a little more about what the likely impact is on people's mental health, you know, that has to now be part of the planning process. But I think on language it's something that I've spent quite a lot of time in our organisation. In trying to destigmatize some of the language. You know, we've had a few sessions here, where people have shared their own experience of mental health, either themselves or their family. You know, our CEO has been on a podcast to talk about her approach to mental health. And it's all those things start to chip away at the stigma that people still experience.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  26:57

Marketing is a deadline driven industry. And this is where I get to have my own personal therapy session. You know, as a freelancer, I've got a lot of people who will send me an email and go, can you do this today, it's really urgent. Now I guarantee whatever that urgent thing was, is going to be stuck in some pipeline, five weeks down the line. And it was nowhere near as urgent as they thought it was. But because I don't have visibility of that, as far as I'm concerned, their whole building is on fire. And I need to get out. And I read something really interesting. And it was about how to take a step back from this. And you know, that adrenaline rush, when you get that email saying do this, do this now, because otherwise the world would fall apart. And it's very easy to get sucked into that language and go, Oh, my God, I'm vital, I'm a vital cog, and if I don't do it, or if I push back, I won't be employed again, or the whole house of cards will fall down. And I read this thing, I wish I could remember the link. But it was something about a sort of old dyed in the wool doctor, Battlefield, Battlefield type Doctor advising a younger doctor on the scene, and there was an emergency, it was high pressure, and he could see the younger Doctor starting to spiral. And he took them aside and he said, this is their emergency, it's not your emergency, you're trained to do whatever you do, when you need to do it. That's not an emergency, they have the emergency, you just do what you have to do. And I found that was really quite calming in a way. Because if you panic when faced with an emergency, all you have are two emergencies. So so it's it's taking that I feel it's about taking that slightly dissociative view to protect yourself and not being frightened to ask the question, when somebody says this is urgent, I need it for 3pm. And going, why? I can if you're building genuinely will burn down for lack of it at 3:01. I will do it. But have you thought about quiet Sergent? Do I need to help you out of a hole? Okay, I get it. You're in a hole. Let me help you. It's not my emergency. It's your emergency, but I can help you. So I find that you know, there are various ways where we're put under pressure, either in marketing or journalism, whatever. And actually trying to find out what's a false pressure could actually be key. And I think whole organisations need to start to try and recognise, am I the one creating a bunch of false pressures and therefore not getting the best out of my teams? Because they're constantly on high cortisol alert.

 

Chris Dunne  29:32

It becomes a cultural thing, doesn't it? You know, we we're conditioned. We know what language to use in that, you know, everyone who's sending you that email knows exactly which words to use to instil that, that need that necessary sense of urgency that's going to make it happen. But, you know, that's a big quite a big shift for people to start to think Hold on. How am I affecting the individual who's receiving this? Am I being fair to them? Or but most people just want the thing done, they want done and they want it done quickly, you know.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  30:01

I've told someone else I'll get it to them by five. So you can do it by three. And I didn't really think why they had to have it by five I just did. But now you've set in chain all these things. So it's, it's, it's one of those things I think is maybe pie in the sky to a degree, that it's not going to change everything. But I would like anyone listening to this podcast, who is perhaps guilty of chucking out a bunch of emails saying, do this by five. Ask yourself why.

 

Ben Walker  30:29

We're obsessed with politeness in this country to the point where we will frame our emails with hi, and how are you how was your weekend. But within the body of those emails, we can still be very transactional and directive to the point where it's hard sometimes as you say, to discern between I just, I just want this off my desk, I want it out of my inbox, versus my house is on fire and my organisation is in trouble. And I think that's an important lesson from today as well apart from you know, the fact get a mental health function in your organisations is just have a little bit of forethought about the language you're using. You know, these are colleagues, these are suppliers, these are clients, they are professional friends, in many ways. Think about how you're presenting that which will benefit them or benefit you because not everything has to be done yesterday. And those things that do we meet to meet to make sure that we're not crying rule so that when we do get things that are necessary to be done yesterday, people can discern those as well. This has been a fantastic discussion, we talked about deadlines. Were on deadline, we're running out of time, would you believe we're nearly up. I've got I've got 90 seconds for you Morag. I genuinely only have 90 seconds you see this is this is an example of a real deadline. It's not a false pressure, it's real pressure. What if you want your readers to take away three things from the issue that's landing on their doorsteps what would they be?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  31:51

Okay, in 45 seconds or less. Challenges are always going to come at us at a million miles an hour. So I would say across the organisation, not just marketers don't have knee jerk reactions, try and take a considered view. I know someone's pressurising you for a KPI for tomorrow for this quarter. But what will that mean in six months? Does that give you the ammunition to push back and say, hang on a minute, let's think. So that would be one thing. You know, everything comes out you a million miles an hour, you've got to build that space in to have a we think otherwise you just gonna build yourself another problem in three weeks time. We are we marketers, your experts, there's so many senses that marketers are going oh, sorry, will you do that. But as you said, Chris, they're the bridge between the business they have insight into everything that's going on. So be brave, stand your ground, whether that's turning down the deadline, having all that information to hand to say this is the right course of action, or this is the right course of inaction. And just make sure that you're demonstrating that everything you're doing is in the company's and in your own personal interest. And those two are not mutually exclusive. But the whole reason that we had Chris here, and this is the third thing is that there's always a lot of pressure. So there's a lot of challenges. We do go into this industry for a bit of excitement and interest. And some of us tend to be natural risk takers. But you must protect your mental health. And you must be alive to the mental health of others. There is so much pressure to do everything yesterday. Just remember, this is their emergency. It's not your emergency, and try and take it from there. Did I run over?

 

Ben Walker  33:29

You're just about tucked it in, but I thought the point about don't turn one emergency into two emergencies is something that everybody can and should take away from this podcast. Chris Dunne, thanks for your insights and your time today, sir, I've been I found it really useful myself to listen to talk about some of this stuff. And I think it's something that people will benefit from hearing. We'd love to have you back on the show by the way at a later date. It's been a great guest and of course to Morag Cuddeford-Jones, our wonderful editor of Catalyst magazine. Thanks again Morag. Always brilliant to have you on the show. Thanks to you both.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  34:03

Always a joy Ben. Thank you.

 

Chris Dunne  34:04

Thanks, Ben.

 

Sophie Peterson  34:08

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