Episode 77: Using effective reactive marketing for your brand

Sophie Peterson  00:03

Welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM marketing podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.

 

Ben Walker  00:17

Hello everybody and welcome to this CIM marketing podcast and today we're going to be discussing reactive marketing and reactive marketing is simply put using events in the news and news media as a launchpad for campaigns. And two experts are with us today to discuss this interesting form of marketing and one of them is Gavin Llewellyn, who is a course director at CIM and itself Gavin, how are you today, sir?

 

Gavin Llewellyn  00:44

Okay, thank you. And thanks very much for having me along today.

 

Ben Walker  00:46

It's great to have you on the show. Gavin, I should say is making his debut on the CIM marketing podcast. We're excited to have him another debutante is with us today. So we've got to debutants and that is Jonny Tuddenham, who is a marketing executive also at CIM cin double hit today from Moor Hall. Jonny, how are you sir?

 

Jonny Tuddenham  01:06

Yeah, very good. thank you, Ben yeah, good to be here with you today.

 

Ben Walker  01:09

It certainly is. So fascinating topic and reactive marketing, CIM have just run a poll on LinkedIn, asking marketers whether they think that reactive marketing is a good way for brands to join conversations and respond to key issues. And a whopping 88% said it is always or sometimes a good idea, which really struck me that you know, this is a big, big thing, isn't it? Gavin? You know, people really need to understand reactive marketing, how to do it. The rights. And also as well, I think we'll discuss later the wrongs.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  01:46

Absolutely. Yeah, I think reactive marketing is one of those elements of marketing that's been around for years in one form or another, whether that's PR, or kind of more recently, in social media. I quite like this definition from an agency in London called Don't Panic, which is that reactive marketing tends to piggyback on news stories, current events, or a national conversation, it is commonly thought of as an instantaneous reaction, usually in the form of owned content, or social posts. And it's really just about how we kind of respond as brands to things that are happening, that's then tied to what we do as brands to really make that impact through exactly channels like social media, but also through PR, and through advertising. And I'm sure we'll kind of cover some examples today that really bring that to life. But yet, it's that opportunity to react quite kind of quite instantly, or with a little bit of thought just to kind of cultural moments, or the things that are happening in the news to really kind of get yourself out there

 

Ben Walker  02:42

It's interesting. I mean, it's not just social is it? I mean, that's probably where people see most reactions to news event from marketing teams on social media. It can be done through other media as well. Is that Is that right?

 

Gavin Llewellyn  02:53

Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, social media, obviously being kind of so common. And really the way of kind of tapping into the zeitgeist, you see that that's where it kind of takes off, you get that viral effect. But if we take examples like Specsavers, for example. There's been things that have happened in the Oscars A few years ago, where there was that big mistake where lala land had one but it was actually another film. It was moonlight that had won. The law team had got up there, this mistake. And then Specsavers then immediately that evening had then said, you know better go to Specsavers and he mocked up some creative to do that. And then you've seen them do likewise when there's been a mistake in the World Cup or something like that as well. So what Specsavers are doing really well, they've got this ability now to react very quickly. And they'll do that through social media, but they can also do it through paid ads, for example, in newspapers, sometimes on billboards as well. So yes, it doesn't just have to be social media can be PR. It could be advertising billboards and press.

 

Ben Walker  03:52

It was excruciating, wasn't it the Oscars blunder. And really, really cashed in Specsavers didn't they, you were there with that with with that quick reaction that's interesting is that the form the etymology of the word reactive is react and to be able to react, you have got to act quickly, have you not? And that's one thing I was pondering is sort of in prepping for this show is that you know, one of the things that marketers pretty much to a man and a woman in this country will tell you privately is that they don't always think that their organisations are Footloose enough to react quickly to make the most of these things. And I wondered if that was a big organisation thing that you know, sometimes it's easier to be in an agency where you can quickly get stuff out there and worry about perhaps the the impact later but least get the message out there versus working in a big organisation where the approvals process can be onerous and can actually count against you being able to do this sort of stuff at times.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  04:50

I think you're right. I think that can definitely be an issue but I think a lot of it will come down to how you're set up as an organisation. How are you organised? Not only is the brand overall but particularly within the marketing teams and the agencies who you might be working with. So if you are in an organisation, there's long approval processes, it's perhaps quite risk averse, then you'll find it difficult to react quickly. Because you'll have to go through all those approval processes, you'll have a million different people looking at it, and having an opinion. And that can be the case whether you're a small business or a large business. But if you're set up, if you've got the right type of brand values in place that everyone's clear on, tone of voice, you know, what your brand stands for, and what you are and are not going to be reacting to, I think you can respond quickly. And yeah, as I say, it just really comes down to how you're set up. An example of that would probably be Oreo. And there was that famous dunk in the dark, from years ago, where the Super Bowl lights had gone out. And Oreo were very quick to respond. They famously hadn't advertised in the Super Bowl. And yet they got a big reaction off the back of it, because they very quickly came out with this, you know, message around, you can still dunk in the dark. And having listened to an interview with Jerry Dakin. He's quite a big thought leader in the marketing space. Now anyway, he'd been working for the company at the time. And he'd said that the way in which they were able to respond was largely because they had everything kind of set up to be able to react, they had the right kind of culture, they had the right agencies and creators in place, and they could turn it out very quickly. But I've worked for organisations in the past where that would just be impossible, because you would need those approvals, you'd need maybe compliance teams looking at it, you'd have different types of what we call hippos highest paid person's opinions getting involved. So yeah, I'd say yes, it can be difficult in a larger organisation. But it then comes down to how you're kind of set up. And I think that's going to be the key.

 

Ben Walker  06:44

The Oreo, exactly. It was brilliant, isn't it, Jonny, I mean, it's an example of being fast being Footloose saving you literally millions and millions of dollars. I mean, the cost of advertising at the Superbowl is excruciating. And the cost per second, I mean, there's massive, but by being quick and fast, they got massive impact for very little outlay, because they could react.

 

Jonny Tuddenham  07:06

That's true and that's as Gavin was mentioning earlier, that's the benefit of having social media on hand is that you have that instant platform where whatever you publish is going up straightaway. And you can be there is almost first come first serve, but that quality is going to see you rise to the top if you've got it. And clearly in this case, Oreo did. I think just what we're talking about a second ago, in terms of Gavin alluded to it in terms of brands needing to know who they are, what it is they're trying to achieve with reactive marketing. If you look at innocent who did as a big organisation, they were able to react very, very quickly when a lot of the things they do on social media are geared up towards reacting to live TV. And I think a really big one that they've done successfully the past few years, is with Great British Bake Off, which got a massive audience. And it's a lot of people using that hashtag. But they're able to get to the top using really clever messages, but also being authentic. I think that's something that is often left out with reactive marketing, we talk about trying to do something that's going to sell our products and make us look good. But they always talk like the average person, it doesn't come across as this brand trying to sell you something. They're reacting in the same way that you are, I would. And I think that's how they're  really successful, making them just seen a likeable brand. And that's going to make me want to buy from them

 

Ben Walker  08:26

It's interesting, brilliant example, brilliant example. Yes, you say you've got you got your audience captured by someone else, in this case, the the nation's bakers who run into millions. And if you get it right, you get your messaging, right, you can get a massive impact for your brand. But it is an art form. It's an art form that has to be done well, it has to be done precisely. And it has to be done quickly. And when you're doing things quickly, when you are living on the wire, mistakes can happen. Can they not go in? And there are risks associated with this stuff? Are there not?

 

Gavin Llewellyn  09:01

Yeah, there are risks. There's obviously the benefits, which we kind of touched upon already. But I think some of the main risks that I would probably highlight would be, you know, first of all the brand reputation associated with getting things wrong. So if you, for example, haven't got a clear strategy, you don't know how you're going to respond to things you don't really know, perhaps what those kind of cultural touch points are, then there is that danger, first of all of rushing things, getting things out there that are rough, they're not quite ready and you can appear, for example, amateurish, and that can have a real kind of brand impact there. But a worst case scenario could be where you just get the term wrong completely. And there was that example from Cinnabon in the US when Carrie Fisher had died. And they came out with probably good intentions to a large extent with an image of Carrie Fisher with the cinnamon and there was the button for that, you know, famous bonds from her hair. They quickly took that down because they just misjudged it. They tried to, you know, tap into a cultural moment, but it just looked exploitive. And that had a big impact there. So they had to really kind of backtrack. So I'd say one of the big risks because is that kind of brand reputation element. The other risk you need to be conscious of is missed opportunities. So, you know, you know, putting the sign into kind of the brand reputation, if you're not keeping an eye on what's trending, you've not got the right social listening setup, you again, don't really know kind of where you fit within, you know, the overall kind of zeitgeist of what's happening there is that, you know, risk that you'll miss out on opportunities, or just react to things slowly. And I think one of the worst things you can do in reactive marketing is to kind of be late to the party, because it just looks like you're just not on the ball. And you're just trying to jump on the bandwagon as opposed to really lead. So you really want to be a leader and you want to get in there quick.

 

Ben Walker  10:50

Do you have to be first? Do you always have to be first? Or do you just have to be in the leading pack for this stuff to work?

 

Gavin Llewellyn  10:57

I would say probably the latter being in the leading pack, I think is key. You don't always have to be first out the blocks if you are. And you're very quick to do that. I think you can get the the first mover advantage, so to speak. But you don't need to be absolutely first, I think probably in that. But leading pack is going to be key. It's those that are kind of struggling at the end that that like oh yes, this might be something to join in on there just looks a little bit sad. So I think yeah, you'd want to be kind of quick, but you don't always have to be immediately first. And that probably kind of ties into another risk, which is just around kind of wasted budget. Because if you do get it wrong, and you haven't got those processes, you haven't got that kind of clear vision about when or when you're not going to react, you could end up spending money, that's not going to have the impact that you want it to, you're going to miss the mark. You know, aside from all that, you know, you've wasted time and money on something that could have been done better had you maybe set yourself up for success.

 

Ben Walker  11:51

How do you make those sort of cases to the powers that be the hippos as Gavin so aptly called them earlier? The the highest paid person's opinion. If you're in an agency, or if you're in a big organisation, you want to become more reactive. Jonny, how do you go about making the case for this stuff? Because it isn't inherently, as I say risky pursuit to some degree because you're doing things so quickly. But it can, as we've seen have lots of impact with minimal budget.

 

Jonny Tuddenham  12:19

Yeah, it certainly can. I think you've just got to decide, first and foremost, do we have organisational backing to do this, and looking at what we want to achieve out of doing so. And then it's all about being brave, really, isn't it? You look at a great example, I think is Ryanair, and they are in that industry, the only one that I can see that do this sort of reactive marketing to a very high level, whereby I've seen so many Ryanair posts as a result of their reactive marketing, where they will just post something in relation to a complaint that they've received, which typically would be a negative thing for brands, and they've twisted it into a positive by coming up with some witty response that people can get behind. I see so many Ryanair posts, I don't think I've seen anything from BA or these other big leaders in that field. But I see a lot from Ryanair, and they know their audience, they know exactly who they're talking to. So they adapt their tone of voice to relate to those people. And they do get a laugh on social media. And for something like that. It sounds so mundane, just as flights at the end of the day. But they make it work with this, this this humour side of things.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  13:28

Another Irish example which is Paddy Power, which is your point Jonny, I think Ryanair do it brilliantly. And you know, play power have kind of made their presence off the back of reactive marketing is just crucial to everything they do with what's happening in football, what's happening in other sports with really quite funny, sometimes very subversive responses to things. So yeah, exactly. To your point, just a completely agree Jonny, having that kind of ability to react and in creating that kind of acceptance. This is about who you are, I think really works.

 

Jonny Tuddenham  13:58

Yeah. And I think with Paddy Power. The reason why that's so strong for them is because advertising as a Betting Agency is so tainted these days, and there's so much awareness around gambling and the dangers of it that it's really difficult to organically create a good brand for yourself just through the products. So what they've done is they've earned it completely differently. And they're looking at football as the whole and all sports really they do such a range of activity. There's their football stuff, where there's this lighthearted side of the content. It kind of takes away from the sharpness of gambling and makes them far more likeable. So it's really very clever how they get away with coming across as unlikable company despite what they do.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  14:40

Not a gambler myself yet. I'm fully aware of Paddy Power. And it's because of that, yeah, definitely.

 

Ben Walker  14:45

The two Irish examples that you've given both share something which is this irreverence of themselves and the industry in which they work in which appeals I think to the consumer. I mean, Ryanair, for example, a lot of its reactive marketing is you say it will twist a complaint, which is usually about their service or the fact that planes are noisy or is a rush to remind people that the reasons they get this is because they cheat compared to their competitors. So all that complaining is telling them to do is every time you get someone moaning about our service, use it as a platform to remind the world that we're much cheaper than anybody else. And it works brilliantly because people, nobody goes on an a Ryanair flight to travel in luxury. The reason people go on a Ryanair flight delay, because it's the cheapest operator on that route or be sometimes the only operators even bother uncovering that route. So their social media, reactive campaigns work brilliantly there with Paddy Power, as you say, similarly irreverent about itself and its industry. And we'll take the Michael about itself, and sports teams and things that have happened, particularly in the world of football that people can laugh about. So it's absolutely brilliant work that they do in this space. As I say it is a real real art form. Not everyone could be that though. Not everybody is at that standard. Now, perhaps they can get there as a future if you're trying to train yourself and your teams as marketers, Gavin Llewellyn, you should know this as a course director at CIM. So I am, what's your starting point, if you want to bring this tool this amazing, the powerful, potentially powerful tool into the mix? What are your starting points?

 

Gavin Llewellyn  16:21

I've got a few kind of maybe do's and don'ts that could help in this regard, I think, first of all, is having a clear marketing and brand strategy with a consistent tone of voice and values that you can sit behind. And the reason that that's going to be important is that if you know who you are, and you know your audience, then you're already going to be starting to kind of create that kind of psychological space as an organisation about where you can and cannot get involved in that would then link to those points, we discussed earlier about having the right processes, the right sign offs, and just the structure in order to get that right. The other thing I think that brands would need to do is to be proactive to be reactive. So yes, when we see these reactive examples, and we've talked about great ones from from Paddy Power, to, to Specsavers, and everyone else, what they will have this, they will have a calendar, they will know what's coming up, for example, they'll know for example, in paddy powers case, you know, the big matches that are happening, and they've already got an idea about maybe some of the things they can start to kind of react to off the back of, but the Oreo example we gave before they were set up, they were ready, they were already, you know, proactive in the sense that they knew where they were going to go. So be proactive, really think about how you're going to set yourself up. And when those moments might be that you actually want to kind of jump off of. And then finally, or not finally, but the other kind of top tip for kind of getting started would be identifying the right topics. So we talked before about that kind of cultural sensitivity, how it kind of aligns with your brand, what are the topics that you want to be bouncing off of, and there'll be some areas that you won't want to go into where just miss aligns with what you stand for, but then others where it will kind of be fair game, an example I'll give is at Nationwide Building Society where I'd worked previously, we did go through kind of a phase of getting involved in things not controversially, but probably areas that weren't related to financial services. And it just felt a little bit flat. But actually, when we started to get more involved in what was happening, you know, from a financial perspective in terms of house prices, or, for example, what's happening with savings that had a much kind of better fit overall. So I would say, yeah, have a clear vision strategy, be proactive, to be reactive, and be clear on the kind of topics in areas where you want to get involved.

 

Ben Walker  18:39

Are there any red line areas do you think Jonny, where people should just say this is not an area that we should ever go into? I mean, there was an example earlier in the show about Cinnabon, trying to be reverend to trying to celebrate her life of Carrie Fisher, but it just didn't work because it's somebody died, and so on and so forth. Are there areas where we should just say, as a starting point, these are places that we just don't want to be going into with our reactive marketing.

 

Jonny Tuddenham  19:02

Yeah, absolutely. And that's going to vary depending on which organisation you are and what you're trying to achieve. Another example, as you were just mentioning, there is crocs when they did a similar thing, when David berry died, and you think when it's someone that's really popular as a celebrity like that has passed away, then that's, you know, you can't be making light of it, because that's just never going to go down well. Another thing I think, that people should be cautious of this year, is generally around the king's coronation. Is that relevant to your brand? Are you going to be appropriate in your messaging? And there's many other examples like politics is another really good example BrewDog last year when Boris Johnson was leaving the show, say, and they did a poll and you could vote to name one of their beers, and it was all going to be around Boris Johnson and that's, you know, it was all very tongue in cheek, it's very cheeky, the these options, it's just quite dangerous because you're going to split your audience between whether they think it's a good idea or not. And that's what a lot of the comments are going to be, rather than actually participating in naming your beer. So I think there's got to be a lot of caution. And that's where it's sort of this approval process internally to decide whether it's a good idea or not. And if it matches up with your brand, and your brand identity, because that's where it's really going to have an impact.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  20:30

Completely agree, I think politics, those kind of areas, just to be wary of, I think the BrewDog example is kind of key going back to the other point around knowing who you are as a brand. Similar again, to Paddy Power. And right now we talked about, they've kind of created this space where they are edgy. And I think a lot of other organisations, if they were to stray into that territory could slip up, but they get away with it. And also, they're not afraid of being controversial. They did it during the World Cup as well, where they made a big announcement around the fact that, you know, they objected to Qatar yet it was found out that they were showing the games in their pubs. And they've actually dealt with the Qatar ease in other areas. But I think because they knew their audience, they know who they are. They generated brand salient. So Pete, they came front of mind in terms of how they, you know, polled the way in which people react to their brand. But that's because they kind of know who they are. And I think other brands trying that without having that kick hit clear background could slip up. So yeah, I definitely agree on those points in terms of areas to be wary.

 

Jonny Tuddenham  21:33

I would say though, it does go too far sometimes. And even if you are a brand who knows who they are, that sometimes isn't enough, I always think back to the boating example, from a few years ago, where they were go for reactive marketing, to kick off a whole campaign, which was for a really good cause, which they decided to land on International Women's Day. And their opening tweet was women belong in the kitchen, which immediately they've done it to cause outrage to get people to look into the comments where they will see, oh, bouquets are actually doing loads of great stuff to try and get women into the cooking industry to work in restaurants. And to actually give them an opportunity that is just never going to land well, when you've got messaging like that, and Burger King are well known for their reactive marketing, and going for these potentially risky approaches. But that one was just a step too far. And were quite rightly so because it is just such an outrageous lead message to go with. And eventually they had to delete the posts and issue an apology. So you know, there is one thing committing to reactive marketing and saying we accept that this is going to be tough, but then there has to be a line somewhere. And I think Burger King in that case where the wrong side of the line.

 

Ben Walker  22:51

That's interesting example, isn't it as fast food industry generally has had some interesting examples. KFC gets into a little bit of hot water or mixed metaphors there. But then KFC got into some sort of trouble. With a reactive marketing campaign. I seem to remember.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  23:06

If it's the the apology campaign, it was actually the other way around. So famously, during the pandemic, they'd run out chicken, which is obviously a major kind of problem for a chicken brand. And so there was already a lot in that kind of negative ill will that was building up. But what KFC did quite cleverly, is they actually reacted to that by coming out with this apology by saying we basically messed up, and they will see change the lettering from KFC to fck. And they created a statement that kind of said, Look, you know, we've messed up, it's a problem here. And it really turned the tide actually because then suddenly, they were just open, they were honest about the mistakes, they were clear about what they were going to do next. And it turned the tide in terms of sentiment. So I think that's an example again, of a brand that kind of knows who they are. They've been kind of going through this evolution over time to kind of change the perception of who of who they are as a brand. And yeah, it really worked to their advantage because people thought Yeah, actually, at the end of the day, it's not life or death. Yes, they're gonna chicken but it'll come back. And it really helped in terms of building that kind of goodwill towards them.

 

Ben Walker  24:14

That's interesting, isn't it, there's a few watchwords your authenticity is one thing and all those interested means of being proactive to be reactive, make sure you've got your ducks in a row. You know what, how your process is going to work when you have to react. And also know your red lines. You know, there are areas where it's just never gonna work out making sexist comments, even if below the line, they're not sexist. So the opposite of sex is trying to kick campaigns off people's death, even if you're trying to be sensitive and actually celebrate their lives is probably not going to work. But even if you do all of these things Jonny and Gavin, do you as marketers have to accept that if you're going to do this stuff, you have to have an appetite for some degree of risk.

 

Jonny Tuddenham  24:59

Yeah, To say absolutely and I'm sure marketers is going into it will have support. Knowing that there is going to be some speed bumps along the way, you know, it's not all going to be easy. And you'll see that with some of the examples we said about with Ryanair, for example, not all of their, their posts that are meant to be funny land well, and that's that's just part of it. But I think organisations and marketers will look at other examples of where it has landed well, if you think about Aldi, for example, who weren't doing so well in a very competitive field, when you think of the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury's and all of these others that that dominate that that food shopping industry. But since they've really gone into reactive marketing head on, and kind of led the way in that industry. Their growth has been absolutely enormous. And obviously there are other factors as as part of that, but some of them that they've really done well with reactive marketing is increase their brand loyalty. And I always think back to the Colin the caterpillar versus Cuthbert the caterpillar example from when m&s started taking legal action against Aldi for their Cuthbert impersonation of Colin, and how Aldi did turn that negative situation where they're facing legal action into a massive positive for them, where they're getting a lot of interest. Obviously, that's just one element of it. But they're also raising awareness of other companies were also doing this caterpillar cake that look very similar. But it's Aldi, that's the one that's in trouble. So they're kind of helping out on that legal side, as well as the marketing side of things. But they've also turned themselves into the starting off as villains, the ones that are being faced with this legal action to kind of be in the heroes of the people because they're posting so much good content around this a caterpillar cake. So they released that the new version where the little packaging had all of the jail cell, the gates on his little box is fantastic. But they managed to turn that into one where they would release this specialisation cake and all the profits would go towards charity. And they started to get really good as a result of this. And you can see how that's enticing for organisations, where you can see what you can do when you're in a bad spot. And coming out of it with a lot more followers, big brand growth, and that customer loyalty, I think is word of mouth as well, because people were talking about that for absolutely ages afterwards and still remember it now really fondly and how they came out of it looking pretty good.

 

Ben Walker  27:41

Indeed, I think Caterpillar wars was was an example of the stunt benefiting both sides of the equation, I'm sure that caterpillar sales in Aldi and indeed in Marks and Sparks both rose due to the amount of publicity both companies got, which is a brilliant example of being irreverent in the right ways. And, you know, trying to turn a crisis into an opportunity, which is, of course, what a lot of reactive marketing actually is. Gavin Llewellyn, we people, people that come and join you on your course, and tell their bosses and marketing leaders that the potential of this stuff, presumably, then plenty opportunities for them to do so.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  28:17

Yeah, definitely. I think you know, as part of how we think about how are we going to approach our plans for the year, what the kind of big events might be that we want to be a part of, I think it should form an element of our of our strategies, I think some of the big opportunities that I would, I would say I just kind of pick three. First one is obviously brand awareness, you can build that awareness exactly to the examples that we've been sharing today, getting in front of a large kind of connected audience around, you know, a big topic that's been talked about can be great, because you can start to trigger that more awareness off the back of who you are. If you can make sure that you are, you know, early at the door, for example, you can then start to get that first mover advantage that we talked about and connect yourself with that kind of live moment. And of course, you can start to increase engagement off the back of that as well. You know, social media is a lot less two way than it used to be. But you can start to get to that point there was that famous, you know, Weetabix and beans post that went viral and it did genuinely kind of go viral. They had this picture of the beans on the Weetabix. And suddenly you had all these other brands kind of taking part there is this banter that was created off the back of it and that generated, you know, real engagement and conversation and I was, you know, colleagues coming up saying, Well would you reckon about this and what do you think and it really did spark interest. And related to that you can start to increase relevance and relatability as well. So those kind of hyper contextual kind of content moments can really start to resonate with audiences and start to hopefully kind of increase increase that appeal. If you wanted to connect with a new audience, a younger audience, for example, this could be a good way of moving into that space we talked about Ryanair earlier and Paddy Power, finding that edge. That's a really good example that brands that have done that. So yeah, I would definitely recommend to anyone that's joining my courses, for example, to really consider this is kind of part of that marketing planning.

 

Ben Walker  30:18

Be relevant, be authentic. Be clever, be quick, and the rewards will come to you, gentlemen, what a great show some fantastic examples and really great insights. Thank you both for your time and for those insights. And I really hope you'll join us back again on the show very soon. That's Johnny Tuddenham, marketing executive at CIM, and Gavin Llewellyn, whose course director also at CIM. Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. It's been great.

 

Gavin Llewellyn  30:44

Thank you. Great to be here and great to speak to you both. Thank you.

 

Sophie Peterson  30:51

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