Episode 80: Catalyst, creativity and Chat GPT

Sophie Peterson  00:03

Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.

 

Ben Walker  00:18

Hello everybody and welcome to the latest edition of the CIM Marketing Podcast and today we are joined by a golden great of the show Morag Cuddeford-Jones, who many of you will know is editor of Catalyst magazine, which is the CIM membership magazine, Morag, how are you today?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  00:37

Exceptionally well Ben yourself?

 

Ben Walker  00:38

Very well, very well enjoying the sunshine, enjoying the weather. And looking forward to today's show. We also have with us a very special guest in the shape of Mr. Josh Clarricoats, who is MD and founder of Insiders Studio, Josh, how are you, sir?

 

Josh Clarricoats  00:54

Very well. Thank you. Nice to be here, Ben hi Morag. I'm off to Glastonbury after this call, so yeah, very excited about that.

 

Ben Walker  01:03

We'll try not to keep you too long and head off to Glastonbury in what looks like a glorious weekend for it. I'm very, very jealous indeed. Before Josh goes and parties for four days, we're going to find out a little bit more about what he's got to say about creativity particularly later on in the show. But before we get there, we're going to start with you Morag to tell us a little bit about what we can expect as CIM members in the latest, super soar away edition of Catalyst magazine, which is out I believe, in a few days time. Is that right?

 

Ben Walker  01:35

Creativity bit I love you know, I love talking about creativity and how it comes about and how we get it and whether we can get it by demanding it or whether it's something that happens innately and accidentally and I'm sure we're going to hear a little bit more about that from Josh, who is an expert on creativity a little bit later. The rise of machines sounds truly terrifying. Is this chat GPT with legs or chat GPT with arms and legs or something even worse?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  01:35

Sounds about right, super soaraway, let's try and keep it a bit grounded so it doesn't all fly off. I don't want to spoil too much. So let's put it in three ways. We've got creative licence. We've got small is beautiful. And finally we have the rise of the machines. So make of that what you will Ben what does that say to you?

 

Ben Walker  01:59

Chat GPT with arms, legs and the power, you've got it we're talking about AI everyone in the world is talking about AI. And I had a really interesting because at the time of recording this is also the Cannes Lionns festival so the world and its wife in marketing and advertising is in Cannes.

 

Ben Walker  02:50

But you didn't get an invite? Neither of you too got an invite? Oh you were invited but just chose not to go which is it?

 

Josh Clarricoats  02:56

I chose Glastonbury. Yeah, not not not Cannes, it was kind of warm Rose in a field or cold Rose on a yacht. I chose the fields.

 

Ben Walker  03:04

You chose the warm rose in a field very wise very wise, and you Morag?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  03:07

Well, naturally, of course I was I was beating them off all those invitations. But I felt no the podcast recording is now can't possibly you know that dodgy French Wi Fi, got to be here. No, I have actually done some reporting on Cannes remotely and I have been to Cannes. I've been to Pierre Cardin's Bubble house. And that was it. But yeah, so Cannes. And there was an interesting comment made about Cannes, that you as you can't move for talking about AI in Cannes. But at least it's not the metaverse, which is what everyone was talking about last year in Cannes apparently. And we all know how well that's gone. So the general impression is that, yes, AI is being talked about a lot. But that's because it's around a lot at the moment. And the sense that it isn't another metaverse. It isn't another bubble. It isn't another hammer in search of a nail. So it does look like it's got legs. Hopefully it won't have too much power. Hopefully that stays with us. But it's gonna be interesting.

 

Ben Walker  04:05

You actually used AI, didn't you in a very important and visible way in your magazine.

 

Josh Clarricoats  04:14

You didn't get it to write the article, did you?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  04:17

Well, I do. I may. You may find that as an editor and a fan of the written word that's come from the human brain. I did somewhat push back and say, maybe we won't have that article written by Chat GPT.

 

Ben Walker  04:34

But you didn't use AI for something almost as significant as writing the article, didn't you?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  04:38

We did. So you will find that we have a very beautiful as we always do, a very beautiful cover to this edition that was conceived of by our exceptional art director Kate Harkus. But it wasn't drawn in inverted commas by her or or pulled together by resources that she has. And this is actually an interesting concept for me because it's one thing I want to chat about. And so Kate did this not through Chat GPT. But through Midjourney, Midjourney, which is the specialist, generative AI for creating images. And it came up with some fantastic things. And it showed me the absolute difference between being a creative professional, and a cack handed amateur. You can imagine who the cack-handed amateur was can't you it was me, because I tried to start with, I tried giving it various prompts. I was trying to think of how you represent advertising and get Midjourney to give us some kind of AI created advertising cover. So me and my innocence, I asked it to do: could you make a vacuum cleaner ad in the style of Andy Warhol that looks like it's been created by Saatchi and Saatchi, it came up with absolute nonsense.

 

Ben Walker  06:02

You got a sort of garbage in garbage out response. It doesn't sound totally like garbage in, by the way, it sounds reasonably rational what you're asking it to do. But you're saying that what came out of the mix was totally unusable.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  06:14

Well, so what it was was it was rational. It just wasn't very original. In what it came up with, I'm sure by seeing those three things a vacuum cleaner in the style of Andy Warhol with the Saatchi and Saatchi type gloss. A lot of people can imagine what that might be. But as an original piece of creative, wasn't very interesting. Yeah, what it took was Kate's inspiration and her way of prompting, and it took her a few goes as well, to get something that was really original for the cover. And when you see it, I think you'll you'll know what we mean about something that's really original.

 

Ben Walker  06:49

I did get a sneak preview from Kate before this show. Actually, I think it's a fantastic piece of work and a great cover. But she did I don't think she'd mind me saying there's actually hopefully won't mind me saying, she said it took longer to brief the bot than it would have actually drawn or done the montage herself in he usual way. What came out was fantastic. But the art was in the briefing of it. And that briefing took a long time and a lot of thinking.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  07:14

That's absolutely it, Ben that's it. That I think is the core point of anything that we want to get out of generative AI, whether it's words or pictures, or that 80% preparation 20% perspiration, you have to be incredibly adept at creating those briefs. And you know what, I think this is completely what creativity and what creative industries are all about. Your ability to draw. It's interesting, my son does graphic design, GCSE. And if I ask him to draw something, it is literally the stickman you know, whether he's 15, can't draw for sugar, but actually using the resources. It's your inventiveness and your ability to explain to people what you want and the concept and to bring it together and what it's for, makes a huge difference to the output. And this has nothing to do now with generative AI. This has to do with the whole of how marketers get concepts and strategies across and communications and things like that.

 

Ben Walker  08:16

It's quite an optimistic message, isn't it? Because it is a tool. So in the same way that a hammer and saw didn't destroy the role of a workman or a tradesman, or tradeswoman, you're suggesting this won't destroy the role of a marketer and creative professionals because how you use that tool, how you brief that tool? How you operate that tool? Isn't where the skill lies where the creativity lies.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  08:41

Absolutely. And I think you're, you know, it's very nascent at the moment it isn't perfect chat GPT has this terrible habit of hallucinating it's what they call hallucinating which is actually making stuff up. It's decided that I'm a head writer for the Independent and Evening Standard two organs I have never written for in my life.

 

Ben Walker  08:59

Yeah, I I put mine in. I think it was done this, haven't they? By now I put mine into it. And it told it is said that I launched the Times' fantasy football game, which I don't remember in the 1990s was a massive hit. Well, I've never A never worked at the times I wish I had but I haven't. And B I've never actually played fantasy football. So where it got this fable from I have absolutely no idea. It was complete nonsense. So yes, there is an issue with accuracy.

 

Josh Clarricoats  09:25

I think it's the new Google, isn't it like Google yourself and see what comes up on Chat GPT and see what comes up. But I think I think the reason that it does that is because it's kind of predicting what the next word is going to be. It's not necessarily finding the resources. It's kind of thinking what's going to be the next word. What's the most logical next word? So yeah, I'm not surprised. It makes quite a lot of mistakes. But it is dangerous when people take it verbatum and what it's churning out is actually real because there's a lot of misinformation that can be created from it.

 

Ben Walker  09:56

Certainly needs lots of one or more human handlers, at the moment to use it, whether it whether it will get more accurate over time, we'll see. But at the moment, the accuracy is an issue. But nevertheless, these tools are quite exciting and interesting, if used in the right way. And you you're sort of putting this out, aren't you to the CIM membership for them to do something different where they are themselves isn't there Morag?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  10:20

Exactly come and have a go, come and have a go if you're a chat GPT enough, or Midjourney enough. So we've put out I believe, some explanation as to how to get onto Midjourney and how to use it. I believe it is free to use or there's a minimal subscription, if you want to get to use it quite speedily, but it is free at the point of entry, and have a play around with it and see if you can create, go and see if see if you can make a better Catalyst cover for us.

 

Ben Walker  10:48

Well there is an absolutely great challenge. I'm expecting you Josh to enter by the way, I'll see what you come up with.

 

Josh Clarricoats  10:54

What's the prize? And then yeah, I'll

 

Ben Walker  10:57

Probably I want to say the glory of it the honour that maybe maybe there may be a further prize, but the main one is the glory and the honour and I'm sure that Insiders Studio, you will want to have that on your on your brass plate outside the door. As a as someone who's an expert in creativity, and perhaps who's starting to use these AI tools, how are you finding it? How are you finding the shift?

 

Josh Clarricoats  11:21

I use AI quite quite a bit already actually. We recently won a pitch where quite a few of the key visuals in there were were made using Midjourney. But without revealing too much one of the images that we wanted to create was a police raid in a shipping yard, British police raiding shipping yards to reveal big pots of guacamole, which is quite a random thing. There's probably not many, if any photographs of that. And what it turned out was was excellent, it looks kind of real apart from the guacamole looks a bit dodgy and I probably wouldn't have wanted to eat it. But the client was really impressed because it got that kind of vision and the image that we wanted and portrayed it really easily. I think what Morag was touching on is it is about what you feed into it and tweaking that and asking the right questions. But I also think it's great for intricate stuff and wacky ideas that might not exist in a visual world. But when it becomes more simplistic design things, for example, your a designer branding studio and you want to create a new logo or brand identity, I think it would actually be quite a lot harder to do that with Midjourney. I see it as more of a, okay, unrealistic, weird images that don't exist. But this more simplistic stuff were really good i and having that attached in your brain that I did what you want to see, I don't think it can replace that yet. But who knows, maybe in a couple of years, there'll be something you can clip into your brain and it can just read your mind. But until we get to that I think I think we're I think we're okay.

 

Josh Clarricoats  13:12

One thing I would say is this might scare a few people I was speaking to a friend the other day who is a creative director, he just started a new job and agents feel like oh, we've got to write this TV ad for a new client, we've won. And we're not happy with anything we've got so far. He's not even a writer. He's an art director, by the way, and he's give it a go. And he had this kind of inkling of an idea and he fed it into to chat GPT write me a 30 second TV ad about blah, blah, blah and give too much away because I'll get in trouble. And what it came back with was really good. He made a few tweaks. And then he read it to the agency and people were tearing up in the room because it was so emotive so powerful. But the key thing is there he had to feed into Chat GPT the original idea, there was still an idea that it wouldn't have done that unless he had what he wanted it to put out. So I think I was a big sceptic of four day weeks. So how are we gonna do four day weeks because I never seem to be able to fit enough in in five days. But perhaps what it might do is help us as humans have a better work life balance because it will speed things up and make things easier. But I don't think it's going to replace us altogether.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  14:24

I think it's really interesting what you said about the four day week because one of the important things about creativity. And while I wouldn't call myself a creative I write and I try and figure out problems and I write long articles and short articles. A lot of the best thinking is done out walking the dog, taking the kids to swimming, swimming myself. And there are times when I'm not at my desk and if I'm chained to my desk, I think my thinking is less powerful. Now if we have something, a tool that can take away some of the necessity of being at your desk, whether that's an AI, personal assistant who just does all the admin and scheduling that you'd normally have to do, or whether they do the, the invoicing, or even sorting out meetings or read, they can read through emails and give suggestions to people, things that you wouldn't have to put a great deal of thought into. But the machinations you need to go through. That's where you find your four day week. And even though you're still perhaps working on that fifth day, it's chuntering through your head while you're in the river, or in Glastonbury.

 

Ben Walker  15:32

Or a Glastonbury, I was about to say at Glastonbury. Absolutely, I think that I think that's interesting, isn't it, if you if you take a bit more of the donkey work out and leave more room for ideas, we've always been as marketers in the market for ideas, but these tools potentially in the ways that you've just said, Josh help delivering those ideas into something more concrete a little bit quicker and easier for us. But surely, that's something that can be quite good for in your line of work. When you're working with smaller businesses with smaller budgets, who can't put as much time cost, they can't sign up as long time sheets, as are the bigger corporates, you can deliver those ideas, those great ideas in a shorter timescale, if your people know how to use these tools correctly.

 

Josh Clarricoats  16:15

Yeah, definitely. That's what that's why they say like, don't be scared of it, get get experimenting, and using all the weird and wonderful AI tools that are out there now, like you say, kind of my role. And what we're do at Insiders is about helping small medium sized enterprises access top tier creativity. Top tier creativity comes at a cost because they're part of big agencies that have overheads and things take time. So a big part of that is working with really talented people who can take some time out because time equals budget, but also yeah, exactly. If they can utilise some of these AI tools further, to speed things up, then that results in cost savings to clients, because that's, you know, where the cost comes from. And just to touch on Morag's point before around Yeah, four day working weeks and having more time think exactly, that's one of the things I really struggle with myself is finding that time to, to not be listening to something or doing something and actually having the idea. So I've got a rule now that whenever I go for a run or cycle, I never listen to music or podcasts or anything, because that's my time where I can embrace just thinking with my own minds. I guess for me, it's like being more bored often is a is a is a is a good thing, I think boreds a bit of a misunderstood word, I think it's good to be bored. You know, when I'm my mum always just say you should never be bored. There's always things that interest us kind of right. But it's kind of not thinking that boredom is a bad thing. reframing that thinking, actually, I'm privileged right now to be in something that I'd call a bit boring because I've managed to zone out from everything that's going on in the world and actually be with my mind. And that's where the best ideas come from.

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  18:02

It is It's the curse of busyness isn't it? You feel you've got to be busy, you're not active. And, you know, I want to try and explain to I don't know, if you have this with clients, I have this with with some of my clients, I edit Catalysts. But I do the odd other thing as well. And when people give you a tight deadline, for example. Now there are some things that can be done on tight deadlines. Editing, long bits of copy can be done on deadline. Interviewing people can be done in a tight deadline. But coming up with the idea and letting it rumble around for a while. Because your first idea is never always your best idea is it? You've got to sit there and go, Oh, I've had a great idea, write it down, think about it and go, Oh, no, there's so many flaws in that. But if we switch this for this, that just doesn't happen quickly. And it routes me all the way back to the AI and chat GPT arguments as well. Which is to say that if you want something to be creative, it needs to have the time, it needs to have the human inspiration, not just because I think humans are better. Obviously we are. But we have our own unique attributes that we bring to it. You Josh will bring a different flavour to a concept someone asks you to think of and I will both draw on our life experiences, our cultural things, things that are just floating around in our head something that a friend has said to us three days ago, that will all feed feed into it. And that's something a machine can't really do. But if you want people to do things too quickly, or you want people to do things, because they're always stuck at their desks, you'll get the same sort of thing that if you have a fairly generic prompt for AI, you'll get the same banal stuff that everyone else is doing because they all want you to do it in two days or three days. So that space for creativity, and that time for creativity is where you're going to get the uniqueness. whatever tool you use, soap box dismounted

 

Ben Walker  20:00

When you when you're trying to do those in a short space of time for your SME clients, small business small and medium sized businesses, Josh, obviously you're going on when you're running your open water swim or you're dancing at Glastonbury or whatever leisure activity you're you're doing, you may have an idea, you then come back into the office on Monday or Tuesday. And and so we need to deliver this using AI or some other some other tool, or a variety of tools. How do you keep that time cost low while while keeping the space for ideas that Morag has been talking about? So this this sort of top top level creativity is accessible for smaller businesses, and not just the giant businesses of this world?

 

Josh Clarricoats  20:46

Yeah, I think part of it is about working with the best talent out there. And people who can come up with ideas, I don't wanna say quickly, because there's more except it's about kind of letting them stew a little bit and kicking them around and making sure where you get to is a good place. But, and that might be the first idea you had. But it's important to look at other ideas to make sure that first idea you thought this is genius. And when I say use utilise AI at the moment is more for the kind of image generation that's why I find it particularly useful. Chat GPT for me at the moment, I haven't, I don't use it that much. But yeah, I think it comes down to one, having really seen one seat necessarily senior but talented people working on an interesting business challenge for our clients. And having a very linear kind of flat structure where these people are making the decisions themselves. I always find it interesting, slagging off agencies or things like that. But I find it interesting that agencies have these levels of process and people that need to the work needs to go through, which inevitably leads to really good work. But I also think that it'd be interesting to do an exact like a test, where you have the first idea that you know, maybe a junior creative heart, and then the idea that got finessed when it's gone through the levels of strategy and ECD, and then show that to a client and see what they pick, because I often think that they make, they might equally just pick that first idea, instead of the thing that's been kicked around for three weeks. And creativity, a lot of it is in the craft and actually bringing it to life as well. There's been plenty of great ideas that have not resulted in good campaigns and effective results because they haven't been brought to life in the right way. And then there's probably been some really kind of, you know, all right ideas that aren't, you know, setting the world alight, but then they've been brought to life in a really interesting way. So, for me, it's about picking the moments and not kicking things around for too long. It's about kind of being tactical in how you how you work and, and yeah, like kicking it around for long enough to improve it, but not kicking it around so much that you're not improving it at all, and you're just wasting time. And it's about finding that balance.

 

Ben Walker  23:20

It's interesting point you make about the hierarchy premium, if you can call it that is that I've worked in agencies that are flat, I've worked in businesses, not so much agencies, which are more hierarchical more of a triangle and structure. And absolutely, the flat ones deliver quicker. And they probably deliver equal quality overall, because you allude to as the ones that are honed and honed and honed within an inch of their lives, go through several layers. That's one way of doing it. Another way of doing it is to go through just one on one and a half layers and deliver a great idea well through executive power for the for the creative and yeah.

 

Josh Clarricoats  23:55

I one thing I also touch on, I guess so like that, that that model works, but big huge brands that, you know, the Unilever's or the AB InBev because they have the budget for that and also the brands that their marketing, probably market leaders or you know, spending over a hell of a lot in terms of kind of their their margin and turnover. But when you're talking about SMEs, often they're the challenge of random ones trying to kind of take market share and or you know, invent a completely different category. And those brands will usually have a key product difference or a few product differences that are different. So if you kind of take that as an example and be like look, that's that's what we need to market here. We don't need to overthink this and think about weird ways that we can put an inventor positioning in a market that doesn't need to you know, we don't need to do that. We're basically were a product of our products and we need to bring that to life and enjoy Selling and creative way. So if we all agree on that beforehand, then we can get to some pretty quick decisions and be like, Okay, this is an agreement, we're not selling two beers until it tastes the exact same. And trying to invent a positioning in a market that isn't really there, we're selling something that is completely different to anything out there. So it's about bringing that initial product benefits life in an interesting way.

 

Ben Walker  25:21

Can you give us examples of that were creative campaigns that, you know, have been noticed for being different, not just because they are big, big, well established brands?

 

Josh Clarricoats  25:31

An example I quite like recently is a brand called Water Bear. So they're kind of Netflix alternative that have a lot of documentaries and shows around kind of climate change the environment. And I saw an ad that they did recently. And it's something along the lines of glue yourself to the TV and help save the planet. And it didn't have any branding on it, or I didn't have Water Bear. But I've never heard of Water Bear before. And then I read that. And I was like, that's interesting. I don't know what this brand is. But it made me get my phone out in Google what Water Bear was. And then of course, I knew what it was. And I was like, this is quite interesting. And I think it's a great example of even a brand new has got like relatively low brand awareness, you don't have to explain exactly what you do in and out of home poster. And I think that's a lesson for a lot of brands that are small, medium enterprises, thinking around interesting ways to engage people and create some kind of intrigue, intrigue, is that the key word there.

 

Ben Walker  26:37

Intrigue Morag. That's the key to creativity, is that right?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  26:41

It really is, I feel that often, we don't give consumers credit for curiosity. So we try and spoon feed them everything amount of time, I've been told, Oh, well, you've got to get this facet of the product in and this facet of the product, and how we want them to enjoy it. And this is the sort of feeling they're going to get from it. Well, if they don't want all those feelings, or they don't want this, why don't you let them just discover things. And simplicity is often the best option. But Josh, I've got a question for you about small enterprises. So in terms of getting the most out of creativity, do you find that small enterprises, it helps when they have a passion and when they have a single product? Because they can be quite sort of single minded about it, and they know where they want it to go. But when briefing creativity and when looking for a creative solution to something, do they put in enough work beforehand to know where they want to be with this the strategy behind it the thinking behind it? Or are they asking when they go to you or someone like you for creative solutions for you to handhold their way through it an awful lot more, which I imagine then takes more time and is more consultative and can be more expensive than having a really defined idea and saying, Okay, we're the experts in our product. You're the expert in creativity. This is where we want to get to.

 

Josh Clarricoats  28:06

Yeah, it's an interesting question. I think that a lot of small medium enterprises, particularly ones that have come up in the last 5-10 years, like I said, have lots of different product benefits that they can bring to life. And I think one of the main challenges that we face is that they've got a few different product benefits. And they're not quite sure which one to talk about which one's the most important, and it's going to resonate the most with the client. So a lot of the work we do is kind of a strategy sprint process and trying to get them to really define what they think is the most important to their consumers. And then once we've agreed on that, it makes the creative process quicker because we're all in agreement on that. And we're not trying to communicate too many different messages. Really, you want to keep it brutally simple and, and communicate one clear message. Because again, we don't have the spend for media to communicate those different messages, you know, so so we have that we have to be focused and we have to be really kind of clear on what what we're trying to get across.

 

Ben Walker  29:21

If people want to maintain their creativity or even enhance their creativity. This year and beyond. What are your three top tips What are your three watchwords if you'd like for doing so? I'm inferring the clarity is one of them. Be clear about what you want to be creative with?

 

Josh Clarricoats  29:38

Yeah, get that clarity. And don't assume that you know what that clarity is as a business owner or marketing director of a small medium enterprise. It's great to get external opinion on that. I think obviously we all live in this microcosm of working in agencies and marketing and LinkedIn and seeing what's on there. And that's cool. And we should be doing that. And so yeah, get get clarity. But also make sure you have ideas and what that current is from external people. I think we touched on before, but embrace boredom as an individual, try and be a bit more bored and set aside half a day to think around things without any external influences or distractions, you know, maybe we could reframe Friday afternoons is like thinking time everyone is switch off, don't have any digital things go for a run, go for a walk, try and you know, and percolate and think about that ideas. I think being interested in general, and just taking in as much stuff as well like, beyond things that you'll necessarily think you're interested in yourself, watching a show at the moment on on Apple TV called drops of God and if you you've watched it, essentially quick synopsis is, it's about a master sommelier who has one of the rarest wine collections in the world. And he dies, he leaves in his will to his estranged daughter, but also to his kind of protege, and they have to compete it out to win his master wine collection is based on that kind of Japanese manga comic. But basically, one of the premises of the film is master sommelier is they just go around smelling everything like literally everything, like freshly opened, like tennis balls smell or kind of box fresh trainers to lavender. And you know, for them to be the best at their job. They just go around smelling everything. So I think as a creative person, or somebody working in marketing take a hint from being a sommelier and just, you know, take in as much stuff as you possibly can. And I think one of the final things that I always try and do is be a bit of a yes, and the person never poopoo an idea straightaway, even if you think it's not there always be like yes, and and, and make sure you can get people to to keep exploring something because yeah, ruling things out straight away is the enemy of great creativity. And I think like agencies are guilty of that, because they often think our client, you know, they're not they're not they're not creative like is but I'm always like, you know what, let's listen to this because this could go somewhere interesting. Like our clients know, the business better than we ever will. Yes, we're fine tuned and coming up with brilliant ideas and things but often the best ideas come from from internally.

 

Ben Walker  32:27

Great creative synopses about being creative, be clear, bored, interested, and say yes, and not yes but Josh will feature in the next issue of Catalyst, which will be with our members in the next few days. He is one of the great contributors you can find in the magazine. There are more, Morag in the 30 seconds or so we've got left Morag, who else can we find in there that we should be looking out for?

 

Morag Cuddeford-Jones  32:52

Well, we can find the CEO of the FIFA Women's World Cup is going to talk about the opportunities for marketers and for sports in the upcoming Australia New Zealand doubleheader double hander is that what they call it? And then we have the billion dollar marketer, which will probably upset the marketer themselves given that's probably not referring to their salary, but in fact, to the amount that they help their company sell itself for that's Khaled El Khatib, who is our profile in this issue. We also have some brilliant stories. As I said, we focused a little bit on SMEs, this edition, and some brilliant stories from some really innovative entrepreneurs who found really interesting gaps in the market from Africa and from Pakistan. And it's gonna be really interesting to see if that inspires our readers. To look for the angles. Look for the interesting ideas, follow roads less well travelled. And yeah, rise up, use AI, use creativity, use whatever the hell you want.

 

Ben Walker  33:52

What a great call to action. It's good to be on your doormat very soon indeed. Pick it up. Enjoy it. It's always a great read. Thank you Morag Cuddeford-Jones, editor of that great magazine Catalyst. And thank you Josh Clarricoats some really great insights on how to be creative in an AI world using the right tools, but also using the biggest the most important tool of all, which is our own brains as marketers. Thank you, sir, for coming on. And I hope you'll join us again, on a show very soon. It's been great having you.

 

Josh Clarricoats  34:19

Yeah, definitely. Thank you guys.

 

Sophie Peterson  34:23

Catalyst magazine is your quarterly dose of the latest marketing knowledge from across the profession, exclusively for CIM members each feature explores new thinking and delivers insightful content across a range of topics, sign into MYCIM or start your membership today to catch up on the latest edition. CIM Marketing Podcast.